Reddit reviews Batman: Knightfall, Vol. 1

> It’s so confusing, why shouldn’t I just be able to follow his story from beginning to present?

> (I’m using Batman as an example but really I’d like help understanding how to follow comics in general as they’re all laid out this way, with overlapping arcs and timelines and such)

This isn't entirely how comics work. In general, it's not the only way other mediums work either. The REQUIREMENT that everything follows a strict, traditional/conventional 3-act structure (beginning, middle, end) is self-imposed and not necessary for good story-telling. The "beginning" of comics happened decades ago and the "end" is nowhere in sight; comics are perpetually stuck in the "middle".

You're already used to non-traditional narrative structure; it's used very often in other mediums. Why does Star Wars get a pass but not superhero comics? Did you see how Darth Vader "became" Darth Vader before he was introduced for the first time? Do you refuse to watch/read/play anything that will potentially have a prequel and ruin your "sense" of chronology? Did Memento or even Pulp Fiction melt your mind? When you go watch Suicide Squad: Hell to Pay, there aren't going to be in-depth introductions for every character.

It's OK to embrace your preferences. Most people like following stories from beginning to end. Now that there is 70+ years of comic history to explore, third parties have attempted ordering it all in some subjective, complicated chronology. It's not really possible, though. How do you handle flashbacks, especially when they're embedded in another story? Do you have to change the chronology to per-panel precision? What about simultaneous story releases? Alternate universes/timelines that are fully/partially "canon" and/or merged/retconned later? Varieties of characterization by multiple writers/artists?

Most of what made these superheroes "cool" in the first place was very topical. What powers do they have? What does their costume look like? Their backstories and character growth/development were fleshed out over the coming decades, more specifically in the "modern" age of comics when the demographic started transitioning to include adults.

There's no "perfect" or "definitive" sequence of events that Batman's story occurred in. That severely limits creators from writing new stories for the character without requiring hard continuity reboots. If you start solidifying that Batman grew up in X, met character Y, fought character Z, in a strict order that can't be changed, then you can't write stories that occur in between those moments. If you plan out Batman's entire chronology to fit a realistic calendar where Bane broke his back on Wednesday and the Court of Owls revealed themselves on Friday, then you (1) will find it won't make sense (because that's not how comics are made) and (2) are stripping all of the "magic" of comics away. Keep in mind: 70+ year old shared universes are an unprecedented achievement of storytelling. No other medium has accomplished something of this scale for this long. You should expect to think of something unique like that a little differently than you might be used to.

I think it's easier to get into comics when you drop the "need" to read EVERYTHING, IN ORDER. You should just read self-contained stories and treat them like separate stories. Think of it like a jigsaw picture puzzle that you're solving one piece at a time. You won't see the big picture (continuity) until you manually piece random pieces of it together over time. You even start to develop your own "methodology" (head-canon, community discussion, etc.) of putting those pieces together (reading comics) in a way that makes sense to you personally. Comics should feel more like self-discovery/exploration than procedure/work.

This is (roughly) how I got into Batman and what I suggest to new readers:

• Year One | #404-407 | 1987 | Miller
  
• The Man Who Laughs | #784-786 | 2005 | Brubaker
  
• The Long Halloween | #1-13 | 1996-1997 | Loeb
  
• Dark Victory | #0-13 | 1999-2000 | Loeb
  
• A Death in the Family | #426-429 | 1988 | Starlin, Wolfman
  
• The Killing Joke | GN | 1988 | Moore
  
• Arkham Asylum | GN | 1989 | Morrison
  
• Knightfall | Batman #484-515, Detective Comics #654-682, etc. | 1993-1994 | Moench, Dixon, et al.
  
• No Man's Land | #563-574, etc. | 1999-2000 | Gale, Rucka, et al.
  
• Hush | #608-619 | 2002-2003 | Loeb
  
• Under the Red Hood | #635-641, 645-650 | 2004-2006 | Winick
  
• Batman | #655-658, 663-669, 672-683, 700-703 | 2006-2010 | Morrison | Reading Order
  
• Battle for the Cowl | #1-3, etc. | 2009 | Daniel
  
• The Return of Bruce Wayne | #1-6 | 2011 | Morrison
  
• Batman and Robin | #1-16, etc. | 2009-2011 | Morrison
  
• Batman, Incorporated | #1-8, 1-13, etc. | 2011-2013 | Morrison
  
• The Black Mirror | Detective Comics #871-881 | 2010-2011 | Snyder
  
• Batman | #1-52 | 2011-2016 | Snyder
  
• Batman and Robin | #0-40, Annual 3 | 2011-2015 | Tomasi
  
• The Dark Knight Returns | #1-4 | 1986 | Miller
  
• Batman (Rebirth) | #1-ongoing | 2016-2018 | King
  

Well, I'm not certain that I could recommend other novels outside of the Batman mythos, but there are a couple of Batman graphic novels that explore the same concepts and thoughts of being Batman as does The Dark Knight Rises. Most of these are either graphic novels or trade paperbacks. Trade paperbacks (TPBs) are collections of a series of comics that would come out weekly all bundled into one nice thick book. Graphic novels were not published as comics, but as books themselves.

Batman: The Dark Knight Returns -
This series has Batman returning to Gotham after 10 years of absence. It's critically acclaimed and generally hailed as one of, if not the, best Batman TPB/graphic-novel.

Knightfall (Part One | Part Two | Part Three) This TPB is all about Bane and Batman. It details Bane's origins, his rise, the moment where he breaks Batman's back, Bruce's recovery, and all the chaos that ensues. Three massive volumes of about 600 pages each, this will take you a while to pour through, but it is one hell of a ride.

No Man's Land - (Volume One | Volume Two | Volume Three | Volume Four - not released yet | Volume Five - not released yet) - This massive Batman event has Gotham going through a cataclysmic earthquake which labels it as a federal disaster area. With no law and total anarchy, the rules of Gotham change and the role of Batman transforms. The second half of TDKR is pretty much this, except this comic series explores the concept much further. Seriously, all in all, this is about 1500 pages of pure Batman. And I'll be damned if these aren't just about the best 1500 pages of Batman out there.

These are all the comics I can think of that are related to TDKR. If you're interested in the books that inspired TDK or Batman Begins, I recommend The Long Halloween, Dark Victory, The Killing Joke, Birth of the Demon, and Batman: Year One.

Hope I helped!

• Year One | #404-407 | 1987 | Miller
  
• The Man Who Laughs | #784-786 | 2005 | Brubaker
  
• The Long Halloween | #1-13 | 1996-1997 | Loeb
  
• Dark Victory | #0-13 | 1999-2000 | Loeb
  
• A Death in the Family | #426-429 | 1988 | Starlin, Wolfman
  
• The Killing Joke | GN | 1988 | Moore
  
• Arkham Asylum | GN | 1989 | Morrison
  
• Knightfall | Batman #484-515, Detective Comics #654-682, etc. | 1993-1994 | Moench, Dixon, et al.
  
• No Man's Land | #563-574, etc. | 1999-2000 | Gale, Rucka, et al.
  
• Hush | #608-619 | 2002-2003 | Loeb
  
• Under the Red Hood | #635-641, 645-650 | 2004-2006 | Winick
  
• Batman | #655-658, 663-669, 672-683 | 2006-2008 | Morrison | Reading Order
  
• Battle for the Cowl | #1-3, etc. | 2009 | Daniel
  
• Time and the Batman | Batman #700-702 | 2010 | Morrison
  
• The Return of Bruce Wayne | #1-6 | 2011 | Morrison
  
• Batman and Robin | #1-16, etc. | 2009-2011 | Morrison
  
• Batman, Incorporated | #1-8, 1-13, etc. | 2011-2013 | Morrison
  
• The Black Mirror | Detective Comics #871-881 | 2010-2011 | Snyder
  
• Batman | #1-52 | 2011-2016 | Snyder
  
• Batman and Robin | #0-40, Annual 3 | 2011-2015 | Tomasi
  
• The Dark Knight Returns | #1-4 | 1986 | Miller
  
• Batman (Rebirth) | #1-ongoing | 2016-2018 | King
  
  
  I also got into comics with Batman Rebirth, afterwards I found this list here on reddit and all of them are just great, few of them are even extraordinary and without any of them we wouldn't have the Batman we have right now.
  
  If I had to pick some highlights, it were The Long Halloween, Dark Victory, No Man's Land, Black Mirror and Hush, especially Hush was fantastic.
  
  Still love Batman Rebirth though.

• The Dark Knight draws heavily from The Long Halloween and plenty of the Joker's lines are taken straight out of a prose issue collected here. There's also the obvious influence of The Killing Joke and The Man Who Laughs. The Killing Joke was also the primary influence on Tim Burton's Batman.
  
  
• Batman Begins draws from a number of stories include Year One, Blind Justice and The Man Who Falls which is collected here.
  
  
• Captain America: The Winter Soldier was based on the fairly recent Ed Brubaker run which is phenomenal.
  
  
• The Dark Knight Rises combines elements of Knightfall, No Man's Land and The Dark Knight Returns. The Dark Knight Returns is also a major influence on the upcoming Batman V Superman.
  
  
• The Avengers mainly draws from the original first issue of The Avengers, which is collected here and retold again here in a modern setting, as well as The Ultimates. There are plenty of shots that feel like they were lifted right out of The Ultimates. On a side note, Joss also wrote the introduction to the book years ago and it was through doing this that he figured out exactly why the Avengers work.
  
  
• The X-Men movies tend to draw more from the 80's, especially Chris Claremont's run. X-Men 2 draws heavily from Gods Loves, Man Kills. X-Men 3 is loosely based off of The Dark Phoenix Saga as well as Joss Whedon's relatively recent Astonishing X-Men. The Wolverine draws from Chris Claremont and Frank Miller's [Wolverine mini-series] and Days of Future Past is based on, you guessed it, Day of Future Past. Even though X-Men: First Class takes it's name from the comic of the same name it has more in common with the early Stan Lee stuff. X-Men Origins: Wolverine draws from several comics include Wolverine's Origin mini-series and Weapon X. The first X-Men movie isn't really based off any particular arc although it did heavily influence Ultimate X-Men.
  
  
• The upcoming Daredevil TV series seems to be drawing heavily from Frank Miller's run, particularly his origin story The Man Without Fear. While Miller's main run took place in the late 70's/early 80's The Man Without Fear came out in the 90's.
  
  
• Guardians of the Galaxy takes its line-up from the 2004 series but the plot of the movie is all its own.
  
  
• Avenger: Age of Ultron seems to be an original story that's taking it's cues, at least in part, from Ultron Unlimited which is collected here.
  
  
• Man of Steel was heavily influenced by John Byrne's 80's reboot although its structure is heavily modelled on the 2010 graphic novel Earth One. There are also bits and pieces taken from Birthright, Secret Origin and All-Star Superman.
  
  
• Iron Man 3 certainly takes its cues from Extremis but a lot of it is just pure Shane Black. The first Iron Man isn't based on a particular storyline but Tony's origin stuff in Afghanistan is almost identical to the flashbacks in Extremis that revamp Tony's origin for a modern context. Iron Man 2 borrows a little from Demon in a Bottle and Armor Wars but ultimately does its own thing.
  
  
• The writer of the Fantastical Four reboot has mentioned that they've been influenced by Ultimate Fantastic Four.
  
  
• Ant-Man follows an original story but is primarily influenced by the Scott Lang Ant-Man books from the late 70's/early 80's.
  
  
• The Thor movies aren't based on any particular storyline but they are vaguely influenced by Walter Simon's run as well as J. Michael Straczynski's run
  
  
• Green Lantern draws heavily from Geoff John's run, especially his near-perfect origin story Secret Origin
  
  
• AKA Jessica Jones is based on the incredible Alias.
  
  EDIT: Formatting

Knightfall (Vols. 1-3) are a must if you're wanting to read about Bane.
Edit: I'd start with this ~ http://www.amazon.com/Batman-Knightfall-Vol-Chuck-Dixon/dp/1401233791/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1367808205&sr=1-1&keywords=knightfall

First of all, what version did you get, the 2012 version, which completes the first Knightfall arc, or the 25th anniversary edition, which is half the size, and only completes the same arc on a separately numbered volume 2?

Second question, did you like what you read of Knightfall? The following parts of the story (regardless of the editions) is written by the same creative teams, and so is likely to follow in quality.

In regards to people saying to skip it, I believe that more so has to do with the Knightsquest arc, that is, volume 2 of the 2012 editions (the modern editions number the volumes differently, though contains more content in what is published across it's differently numbered volumes. For more information, see this post). As to why people have these thoughts: Volume 1, or the first Knightfall arc is more event based. Batman goes through each on of his rogues before a big final fight with Bane. There was a big push for this event happening, there was a big countdown, then it happened, and people generally liked it. People who like the B and C list rogues like this arc, because it represents their favourite characters, who might not get a show in otherwise.

I can't really explain why people dislike Knightsquest without spoiling it slightly, so tread carefully ahead, but basically [spoiler](/s "Bane puts Bruce out of commision, and so Jean Paul Valley/Azrael takes the mantle of Batman. ")

Some people are just not fond of this rendition of Batman, and so a volume which collects just as many chapters with a characterisation they are not fond of becomes grating to them. So, upon completing volume 1 of Knightfall, you should ask yourself, are you satisfied with the writers representation of this character enough to continue the saga?

Other people do have concerns with the way the 2012 editions were collected [spoiler](/s "As back in the 90's, there were separate titles focusing on Azrael's journey as Batman, and Bruce's separate journey to recover. The Azrael chapters were collected in the 2012 editions, but the Bruce Wayne part of the saga was never collected until recently, which soured a few readers, and made the leap to volume 3, Knightsend, the sagas conclusion, harder to do, after missing Bruce's journey back to that point.")

I do think there is a point in the story being told in volume 2 with Knightsquest, but I don't feel it was executed very well, though I also was not a fan of volume 1 either, and my low opinion of volume 1clued me into my dislike of volume 2. The "point" of this story is [spoiler](/s "A demonstration on the escalation of force that necessarily follows the lapse in Batman's morals if he finally concedes to the use of guns. ") It is a worthwhile theme to explore, I just don't feel the way it was explored worked very well.

So, that circles back to an earlier question, as no one can really have the final word in whether or not you continue reading other than you. Did you enjoy volume 1? If so, you may or may not enjoy volume 2, depending on whether or not this version of Batman interests you. There are some who like volume 1, dislike volume 2, though do enjoy again volume 3, as it represents a return to status quo. I don't know whether I can really advise you though to skip straight to volume 3, as it is so dependent on the story told between these two volumes (which as stated above, if you are collecting the 2012 versions anyway, you may not even have that complete story collected to begin with). So, if you didn't enjoy, I wouldn't really recommend skipping it, but instead dropping it, but at the end of the day, that final judgement is on you.

If you enjoyed it, maybe pick up the next one. If not so much, maybe put it lower on your priority list and circle back to it. If you didn't enjoy it at all, then drop it. I hope this helps!

http://www.amazon.com/Batman-Knightfall-Vol-Chuck-Dixon/dp/1401233791

This is a newer version. It's longer than the last one that was released...volume 3 won't be out until September, though.

So the new Vol. 1 is the way to go? ;)

Good choice.
I'd also recommend (in no particular order):

• [Year One] (http://www.amazon.com/Batman-Year-One-Frank-Miller/dp/1401207529/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1405986279&sr=8-1&keywords=batman+year+one)
  
• Joker
  
• Arkham Asylum
  
• The Dark Knight Returns
  
• The Killing Joke
  
• Knightfall
  
• The Long Halloween
  
• No Man's Land
  
  Aaand...that's it...those are all the Batman comics I've read. *sob*

If you want to read some good Ghost Rider, I recommend Jason Aaron's work. These books are what you want:

• Ghost Rider Vol. 1: Hell Bent and Heaven Bound
  
• Ghost Rider, Vol. 2: The Last Stand
  
• Ghost Rider Vol. 3: Trials and Tribulations
  
• Ghost Riders: Heaven's On Fire
  
  As for Bane, if you want to read the original Bane story, you want to read Batman: Knightfall. If you'd like to read some good Bane stuff after that, read Secret Six by Gail Simone

I think they still have it on Amazon, but the re-release they started a year or so ago makes it really easy. Part 1 of the new release contains volumes 1 and 2 of the prior releases.

Is it these three complete volumes you're talking about?
http://www.amazon.ca/Batman-Knightfall-Vol-1-Various/dp/1401233791/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1347049131&sr=8-1
http://www.amazon.ca/Batman-Knightfall-Vol-2-Knightquest/dp/1401235360/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1347049131&sr=8-3
http://www.amazon.ca/Batman-Knightfall-Vol-3-KnightsEnd/dp/1401237215/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1347049131&sr=8-2

Happy happy cake day

1 Cake or birthday related (It is my cake day after all) It's uh...it;'s Jesuses birthday?

2 Simon Pegg was a comic artist in Spaced

3 A book you are eager to read

4 Eating Utensils Someone is stabbed with a fork

5 Animal

6 Purple

7 A game

8 A guilty pleasure not her best, but I love it.

9 A Tool you will need to keep up with so many years

10 Something from your childhood

11 An organizational item

12 Hobby I obsess over old WCW

13 Nerdy/ Geeky

14 Something Natural

15 Green

16 Something you wear stretch stretch stretch

17 Funny

18 Beads, Bees or Beans Beads are worn

19 Gardening Audrey hides in a tree which is almost like gardening if you don't question it

20 Your absolute favorite item on your wish list no matter the price.

Bonus item because quiche is delicious

I haven't read the book yet, but on the cover shown on Amazon, Bane has his hands above and is pushing downwards. Here. I think it looks far more painful on the cover than in this picture.

Jean Paul Valley (aka Azrael aka AzBats) - last third of Knightfall Vol 1 and all of Knightfall Vol 2

Dick Grayson - First appearance as Batman was the "Prodigal" storyline, which is currently out of print but will be included in Knightfall Vol 3 when it is released in September. More Recently, Dick takes over as Batman in Morrison's Batman and Robin run (Vol 1 of 3 linked) and then again in Synder's Black Mirror story

Now, as for which character to start with, I'd advise you to start with Batman comics. His comics are very accessible, and he has tons of fantastic stories. Of course, with Batman stories, rarely do you need any pre-reading. Some stories have some required reading and/or are sequels to a previous story, though.

The de facto first trade to get is Batman: Year One by Frank Miller. The first major Batman story chronologically, but more importantly, it's a fantastic story overall.

Another great story is the KnightSaga. You mentioned you were interested in Bane. Well, this is as interesting as Bane gets. It's a trilogy of storylines, consisting of Batman: Knightfall, Vol. 1, Batman: Knightfall, Vol. 2: Knightquest, and finally Batman: Knightfall, Vol. 3: KnightsEnd. The Knightfall Saga does not require any pre-reading, by the way.

Now, another way to go, is that you can just forget about everything pre-new52 (post-Crisis) and just jump into Batman Vol. 2, which is the New 52 relaunch of the Batman title. I wouldn't recommend completely dismissing every Batman story that isn't 52, though. Because even though his new 52 stories have been consistently superb, you'd be missing out on a lot of good shit. If you do feel overwhelmed, though, and just want to jump into the relaunch so you can catch up and then read it monthly, start with Batman Vol. 1: The Court of Owls (The New 52). It's one of the best Batman stories of all time, by the way, so regardless of whether or not you wanna put off post-Crisis stories, read Court of Owls, which is the first 5 New 52 Batman trades currently out.

Other Batman/Batfamily recommendations:

• Batman: The Killing Joke is the notorious masterpiece by Alan Moore. Even if Moore don't like the story (he wrote it as a favour to Bolland), it contains all of Moore's intuitions and considerations about superheroes which appear in Watchmen too. The plot take place in two separate windows of time: a half is the present of Dick Giordano's run just before "Death in the Family", the other half is a reinterpretation of the classic Detective Comics #168. Considered by most as the ultimate Joker's origin story, it's both pure Batman and pure Moore. Read it if you liked Watchmen, as The Killing Joke is one of those comics that contribute to define the psychology and the peculiarities of the characters, hero and villain.
  
  
• Batman: The Man Who Laughs by Ed Brubaker is one of the shortest and least-known among these. It's a rewrite in a modern style of the classic Batman #1 which contains the first appearance of the Joker, but it's made to be perfectly integrated in a continuity made of Year One and The Killing Joke. It presents classic Brubaker's narration style and it's very dark
  
  
• Batman: The Long Halloween by Jeph Loeb is one of the longest and most articulated story of these. It takes place in the year between The Man Who Laughs (the end of Year One) and the birth of Two Faces, includes a great part of classic Batman cast and marks the connections between the criminal clans who worked in Gotham before Batman like Falcone from Year One and Maroni from Two-Face origin story. The story is a declaration of love to the character of Batman, it could be arranged between the original first stories since it lasts for a whole year and jumps from an event to another.
  
  
• Batman: Dark Victory by Jeph Loeb is the direct sequel of The Long Halloween, involving the same cast and taking place after those events until Robin's inclusion in the dynamic duo. The story basically retcons Robin's origin postponing it after those of most villans (e.g. Robin appears in Detective Comics #38, Two-Face in issue #66), but explores in a good way the psyche of a man who takes a young man alongside him and his battle against crime, a really controversial topic debated since Jason Todd's death.
  
  
• Catwoman: When in Rome by Jeph Loeb does not contains much Batman. It's the third one of the Loeb trilogy about Batman's early years and it is said to suffer from some holes in the plot, but it fulfills some open questions like the relationship between Selina Kyle and Falcone suggested by Miller in Year One and Catwoman's absence during Dark Victory.
  
  ---
  You also asked for Vixen recs. I'd really recommend getting Vixen: Return of the Lion, which is a 2008 mini-series, written by G Willow Wilson. She is a brilliant writer, I think this mini-series will peak your interest. It doesn't require pre-reading as well.
  
  ---
  Sorry for the late reply. Hope this helped :)

Seriously. It's more like a paperback omnibus, or one of the Knightfall trades (which are hella cheap for their massive size).

i know you said you're looking for individual comics but this is budget friendly and a very good chronological collection. I'd recommend to anyone interested in Bane. http://www.amazon.com/dp/1401233791/?&creativeASIN=1401233791&tag=excos06-20

Amazon

I got mine at the local shop, but can get it from Amazon