Reddit reviews Beyond Discipline: From Compliance to Community, 10th Anniversary Edition

Here's my 2 cents on the subject. First, I'd give up on the idea of debating. Most of the debating I see is nothing more than verbal warfare--how productive is that? Well, it probably depends on what your objectives are. Are you out to belittle people and make yourself feel better? Than verbal warfare is the way to go. Are you out to improve knowledge or discover truth? Then debating probably isn't the route to take. Whatever, I'd establish the objective upfront. I'd recommend simply asking questions and providing sources.

So what are some questions involved in the spanking subject?

1. What are the parents goals?
   
2. Do the methods applied meet the desired goals?
   
3. What is the self-ownership status of a child?
   
4. When does a child gain full agency?
   
   
5. Goals will vary by parent, but shouldn't this question be asked every time the subject comes up? Most parents will answer with goals like happy, productive, independent, socially skilled, able to think critically, whatever. I doubt many parents will say out lound that they want obedience, silence, blind acceptance of authority, shyness, inability to bond, addictive behavior, a poor relationship with their parents as adults, approach-avoidance behavior, depression, divorce, etc. The point is, the question needs to be asked, and the answer must frame the response.
   
   
6. Do the methods applied meet the desired goals? Now would be an excellent time to provide links and sources. There is a wealth of information available on the effectiveness and consequences of different parenting techniques. Read the sources, compare results to the desired goals, make your decision. No emotional and verbal warfare required.
   
   
7. What is the self-ownership status of a child? I've yet to see a complete theory or philosophy on this subject. I'd recommend saying you don't know or labeling all proposals as a "working theory" to diffuse all the negative reactions you're likely to get on this emotional subject. Personally I think parents should have a trustee relationship with their children, and that a child's request to leave a household should be honored as soon as he can make it. I have no idea how to put that in an argument but suspect it would involve knowledge of cognitive development.
   
   
8. When does a child gain full agency? Well, first you have the whole can one own oneself debate. Then you'd have to argue when that occurs, if it does. I again lean towards the trustee relationship and gradual development of agency.
   
   Here's sources for those interested in studying the issue instead of yelling at each other:
   
   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbiq2-ukfhM
   
   http://www.alfiekohn.org/index.php
   
   http://www.amazon.com/Unconditional-Parenting-Moving-Rewards-Punishments/dp/0743487486/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1338338284&sr=8-1
   
   http://www.amazon.com/Beyond-Discipline-Compliance-Alfie-Kohn/dp/1416604723/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1338338349&sr=1-1
   
   http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_1_17?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=punished+by+rewards+by+alfie+kohn&sprefix=punished+by+rewar%2Cstripbooks%2C256
   
   http://www.amazon.com/No-Contest-Case-Against-Competition/dp/0395631254/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1338338440&sr=1-2
   
   http://nospank.net/
   
   http://www.rie.org/
   
   http://www.wholechild.org/vision/documents/TheEffectsOfImprovingCaregivingOnEarlyDevelopment.pdf
   
   http://www.echoparenting.org/
   
   http://www.becomingtheparent.com/all/hp.html
   
   http://drgabormate.com/
   
   http://www.committedparent.com/
   
   http://www.janetlansbury.com/
   
   http://www.regardingbaby.org/
   
   http://www.eileensclasses.com/
   
   http://www.mindfulparentingnyc.com/Mindful_Parenting/Welcome.html
   
   http://www.riemiami.com/
   
   
   http://www.amazon.com/Dear-Parent-Caring-Infants-Respect/dp/1892560062/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1338339719&sr=1-1
   
   http://www.amazon.com/Your-Self-Confident-Baby-Encourage-Abilities/dp/1118158792/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1338339719&sr=1-3
   
   http://www.amazon.com/The-RIE-Manual/dp/1892560003/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1294253451&sr=1-1
   
   http://www.amazon.com/Blessing-Skinned-Knee-Teachings-Self-Reliant/dp/1416593063/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1298050770&sr=8-1
   
   http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=ruth+anne+hammond&x=0&y=0
   
   http://www.amazon.com/Becoming-Parent-You-Want-Sourcebook/dp/0553067508/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1294253521&sr=1-1
   
   http://www.amazon.com/Emotional-Life-Toddler-Alicia-Lieberman/dp/0028740173/ref=pd_sim_b_2
   
   http://www.amazon.com/Theories-Attachment-Introduction-Ainsworth-Brazelton/dp/1933653388/ref=sr_1_10?ie=UTF8&qid=1298051329&sr=8-10
   
   http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000XR2CGU/ref=s9_simh_gw_p14_d0_i1?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-2&pf_rd_r=1C1SJ1BR2T4ADEN9VMJM&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=470938631&pf_rd_i=507846
   
   http://www.amazon.com/Unfolding-Infants-Natural-Gross-Development/dp/1892560070/ref=pd_sim_b_1
   
   http://www.youtube.com/user/stefbot/videos?query=parenting
   
   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zyNQFG7C8JM
   
   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjxXuDYdBzY
   
   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONNRfflggBg
   
   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1GJsCa_4G8
   

A couple of books worth checking out, both by Alfie Kohn:

Punished by Rewards

Beyond Discipline

I'm having a very similar experience with both my emotional state and the classroom environment.

Most people wouldn't say this, but perhaps your instincts about discipline/punishment are worth listening to. In the short term, for the sake of your sanity, you may need to set them aside, because in my experience, they don't lead to quick fixes, and as you said, a structured environment is important for your students. However, I would posit that structure does not REQUIRE punishment, though that's certainly one way to get there.

I highly recommend these two books: Beyond Discipline and Lost at School. I think you would find them quite validating. Even if you (or any others reading this) are not willing to entirely give up punishment, I believe there is ample evidence out there that there is another way.

Feel free to message me if you are interested in discussing. This is an issue I feel very deeply about, even if I am currently not skilled enough to create the kind of environment I'd like to see.

Best of luck with the rest of your school year!