Reddit reviews Bible, Gender, Sexuality: Reframing the Church's Debate on Same-Sex Relationships

Some resources for you:

• In terms of a succinct summary of a Reformed viewpoint, I know of no better resource than the Great Lakes Catechism on Marriage and Sexuality which was created by one of the Regional Synods of the Reformed Church in America and was commended to all RCA churches and classes as a means of understanding of the biblical teaching on human sexuality
  
• I think [Washed and Waiting: Reflections on Christian Faithfulness and Homosexuality] by Wesley Hill is an absolute must-read. Wes and I were friends in college and while he's not exactly a big-R Reformed person (he's an Episcopal priest that teaches at an Anglican seminary), I think he would reasonably be described as reformed "in a broader understanding of the term." He's described himself as coming from a reformed perspective, he was one of the first people to attend John Piper's seminary and speaks at RTS on a somewhat regular basis.
  
• Wes was also one of the keynote speakers at the Revoice conference last summer, that was held at Memorial PCA in St. Louis last summer. The mission of Revoice is "To support and encourage gay, lesbian, bisexual, and other same-sex attracted Christians—as well as those who love them—so that all in the Church might be empowered to live in gospel unity while observing the historic Christian doctrine of marriage and sexuality." It's not a Reformed specific conference - many of the speakers are Roman Catholic - but there are a lot of good resources, and some have a very distinctive Reformed flavor. Many of the talks from last years conference are available on their youtube channel.
  
• Jeffrey Weima is a Professor of New Testament at Calvin Theological Seminary and has given a number of talks on what the Bible teaches about same-sex activity. One of them was recorded and posted to youtube: [Part One](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFA_r7qU_4A&t=2065s} and Part Two. If you prefer to read, he wrote a brief, but a still good overview of the issues for the Calvin Theological Seminary Magazine: "Same-Sex Activity: What Does the New Testament Say?"
  The Forum 22.3 (Fall 2105): 9-12
  
• If you want to engage with the affirming side, the best option is probably Jim Brownson's book Bible, Gender, Sexuality: Reframing the Church's Debate on Same-Sex Relationships. Brownson teaches at Western Theological Seminary (RCA). While I ultimately disagree with him, he's a good example of how someone can respect the authority of scripture and come away with a different perspective on this issue.

See "The Bible, Gender, and Sexuality" for theological arguments for and against LGBT marraige. It's written by a Professor at Western Theological Seminary who provides a theological breakdown of all the arguments for and against.
Basically it boils down to how you read the Bible. If you read it word for word and meaning for meaning in present day language, you're going to get a different interpretation than someone who is trying to understand the culture and understanding of the people who wrote it. Someone who reads it as the "Indisputable Word of God" is going to get a different message than someone who reads it as "The Inspired Word of God Written by Man."
Many historians and some theologians have concluded that the lgbt community as we see it today was not present in the time of the biblical authors, thus they didn't have enough understanding to comment on (everything) faced by today's lgbt community.

I came from that background. In fact I think many who are conservative and gay have grown up in Christian / Catholic / Mormon households and it is familiar to us. We were rejected for being gay, christian, and conservative a triple whammy.

I'd suggest listening to youtube Gay Christian Network. Watch This Documentary. Tons of videos like this. There are several who do support the LGBT community and have their own churches. They just had a conference that was huge (once a year). I have backed away from it as they have become much to political for me with a liberal tint and Trump hate. But there is definitely Republicans and Democrats there. Checkout the other videos as well the full conference is online. IF you want a explanation of the bible and homosexuality Matthew Vine has a book. But Dr. Brownson is much deeper.

Many are wounded by their faith and the hatred they received the totally reject religion and become almost rebellious liberal SJWs. Some like myself become private about our faith (hell it's hard enough to find a conservative) and personal, often not the ultra religious types (It was another part of yourself that became closeted as some gays hate religion and conservative viewpoints). Some are super religious and from liberal accepting backgrounds (families) so I think it's easier for them in a way. I think there are many more liberal christian gays than conservatives. Because of separation of church and state some are closeted trump supporters. Peter Theil is conservative and Christian. Tony Campolo Pastor, Rob Bell mega church pastor famous for his Nooma videos, Jay baker son of Jim and Tammy (hes quite alternative), Hillsong Christian Singer Vicky Beeching, Singer Jennifer Knapp.

They say as generations go by, the younger generation grew up with Gay is ok and are much more accepting, many leave the church when they grow older.


{Documentary}_

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QImNx1JA3BI - Documentary on Being Gay and Christian (experiences)

{Deep Dive into Bible Verses - Theology}__

Matthew Vine

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ezQjNJUSraY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_8ZgSHK6tdA

Dr. James Brownson (Deep Dive Theology)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1f0KD-B0Z8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKOTNneoOpU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kONByDAXko

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yt-a0BiAEVs

{Videos}___

https://www.youtube.com/user/GayChristianNetwork - Videos why its ok to be gay and christian, Speakers Keynotes from Gay Christian Network Conference 1,500 Attendees

{Books}_

http://www.amazon.com/Torn-Rescuing-Gospel-Gays-vs-Christians-Debate/dp/1455514306 - Justin Lee (biography about being gay and christian)

http://www.amazon.com/God-Gay-Christian-Biblical-Relationships-ebook/dp/B00F1W0RD2 - Matthew Vines

http://www.amazon.com/Bible-Gender-Sexuality-Reframing-Relationships/dp/0802868630 - Dr. James Brownson (deep dive theology)

{Forum / Gay Christian Message Board}

http://www.gaychristian.net

{Find a Gay Affirming Church}____

http://www.gaychurch.org

I'm technically a Methodist who is also exploring Anglicanism, so the actual Anglicans here can correct me where I miss the mark, but I'll give it a shot.

1. SSM is an issue that can't really be summed up quickly. In short, it boils down to interpreting Scripture and the Church Fathers in light of their culture vs. ours, other Scripture and writings, and Scripture/Christianity's vision of God's Kingdom. I am currently trying to make up my mind on this issue, and I highly recommend Bible, Geder, Sexuality. It's geared heavily toward traditional thought on the issue and breaking it way down from a scholarly standpoint.
   As far as contraception goes, long story short is that Protestants see throughout Scripture a vision of sex that is about much more than procreation - rather, its purpose in addition to procreation is to unite a couple in intimacy and love. My personal answer would be that sex is a foretaste of the ultimate love between Christ and the Church - limiting it to procreation reduces its value and turns it into a "species propagation" thing as opposed to a "unitive, intimate, sacrificial love" thing.
   
   
2. Long story short, Paul's (and other writers) prohibitions against women teaching/speaking/etc. are not a general statement of some divine order, but rooted in particular issues of the day. The book I recommended speaks on this very well in one of the chapters. Essentially, in Paul's day, many women in the Corinthian church were trying to teach/speak over the men to selfishly try and claim superiority (the Greek here indicates this theme, and the book expands on this heavily). Additionally, just like Paul writes under the assumption that slavery exists and how to deal with that, NT writings on women assume gender hierarchy that, when upset, could cause some social problems between people that weren't worth it to risk the Gospel message.
   
   
3. There really isn't a defined doctrine. What I learned from an Episcopal priest is that it's generally "Christ is present in the celebration of the Eucharist, but it's pointless to worry about how and risk division."
   
   
4. The first suggestion I would make is to read the Psalms and reflect on them. Not only are they beautiful poems, they are, at their core, prayers and praises. Personally, I also found it very helpful to think about the things I most often pray for (wisdom, discernment, to be gentler/kinder, etc.) and I searched Scripture and Christian history (including the Book of Common Prayer and prayers from the Methodist church) for Psalms / prayers that reflected those thoughts. I wrote those down in a notebook and started praying those prayers regularly. The difficult thing is that prayer life is a very personal thing. Christ tells us in Matthew 6:6 to go "into your inner room and pray." I took this very literally and made a small "prayer corner" in a little nook in my closet that has candles, a cross, other things that remind me of Jesus. Above all, it often just relies on you making a habit of it. When you build prayer into your schedule, it's easier to keep praying.
   
   
5. No. Basically anyone who isn't Evangelical trusts Scripture and tradition when they say "one baptism for the forgiveness of sins." If you were baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, you're good. Also, depending on the person/parish, Patron Saints aren't really a thing. The more ultra-trad "Anglo-Catholics" are usually friendly to Saints/Mary in a similar way to Catholics, but the typical Episcopal/Anglican parish won't really pay any mind to Saint prayer, patronage, or veneration. The 39 Articles originally called it all "a vain thing," but in practice, it's one of those "non-essentials" that the Anglican church just doesn't really make a definite statement about as good or bad.
   
   
6. A universal church. Unlike Catholics/Orthodox, Anglicans don't say that Anglicanism is the "one true Church" and that any tradition outside it is flawed. My understanding is that Anglicans follow St. Vincent of Lerins when he says the true faith lies in what has been believed "always, everywhere, by everyone." Anglicans generally draw this line at the traditional Creeds (Apostles, Nicene, and I believe Athanasian) / the first few Councils. Anything beyond that is non-essential and up for discussion/interpretation.
   
   
7. This discussion is always loaded with touchy semantics. I take it what you're asking is if Anglicans treat the Bible like, say, a Southern Baptist would (totally literal "God's word," creation was literally 6 days, etc.), and the answer is no. Anglicans, like other mainline denominations, are totally kosher with historical criticism and things like evolution. Scripture is not a science or history textbook.

I think that this will give you a basic overview better than I ever could

For further reading (if your honestly interested) I'd suggest:

• Bible, Gender, Sexuality
  
• God and the Gay Christian (This one is written by a man who self-identifies as 'conservative' if that seems more up your alley)

> Demonstrate it.

No.

> It's so obvious just reading Leviticus 20:13, Romans 1, the story of Sodom and Gomorrah, etc. that homosexuality is a wicked sin in of itself.

To say that a story about a city of men who try to gang rape three angels visiting them somehow obviously means that God condemns monogamous, same-sex relationships is intellectually lazy at best. Hearing this as one of your scriptural evidences tells me you haven't yet done any sort of serious study on this subject.

Romans 1 is one of the verses that requires careful study and a nuanced hermeneutic. I'm not going to try to debate its meaning here. If you're honestly interested in some careful Biblical study of this subject that arrives at a different conclusion than your own I would recommend reading The Bible, Gender, and Sexuality.

And before writing any nuanced scriptural argument off as hermeneutical gymnastics, consider any of the things in scripture you yourself would not likely claim to follow. Why do we not require women to have their head covered while praying? Because of careful study and a nuanced hermeneutic. Why do we not require women to be silent while in church? Because of careful study and a nuanced hermeneutic. Why do we now condemn slavery despite Paul's command to slaves to obey their masters, and the general lack of condemnation of the practice throughout scripture? Because of careful study and a nuanced hermeneutic. Why do we not stone to death any rebellious sons? Because of careful study and a nuanced hermeneutic.

Keep in mind that what we're debating here in my comment is not even whether or not gay marriages are sinful, but only whether or not it's a reasonable position to hold as a Bible-believing Christian. That's such a low bar. It's honestly about acknowledging that there's a non-zero chance your interpretation of the Bible is wrong on this subject.

To flip it around, it's similar to when an affirming Christian hears your non-affirming stance and immediately calls you a bigot, assumes you don't have the love of Christ in you, and writes you off as a fundamentalist who misses the actual message of the Gospel. I'm sure you're not a fan of that. It's frustrating. It's condescending. It lacks even an ounce of humility in their own position. It's not assuming the best of you.

> but it wasn't culturally condemned to hate or revile them

Even if you hold a non-affirming stance we should be happy that less people 'hate and revile' gay individuals. Even when we condemn a sin we should always be looking for ways to humanize those who are different from us in order to love them in the best way possible.

If you want to be sassy: https://i.imgur.com/bHp6k.jpg

If you want to point toward liberal Christianity:
https://www.amazon.com/Bible-Gender-Sexuality-Reframing-Relationships/dp/0802868630

tldr Loving committed consensual relationships are good and blameless.

I'll edit an email I sent to a pastor as I was on my last leg of liberal Christianity:

>'The following come from Christians who have put a lot of effort into understanding the world and the Bible:

>I believe the Earth is old http://ageofrocks.org/100-reasons-the-earth-is-old/

>I believe humans and apes have a common ancestor http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section4.html

>I believe there was not a cosmic fall. some special humans starting with Adam and Eve gained souls and then changed the spiritual relationship with God and humans: https://www.scienceandchristianbelief.org/serve_pdf_free.php?filename=SCB+18-1+Bimson.pdf

>Thus I believe homosexual actions in nature and even humanity occurred even before Adam and Eve. I believe the pattern of one man and one wife might be optimal, but not the exclusive way to have a family or love another romantically. I think the Old Testament rules no longer apply and the New testament likely describes abusive, cultist and/or pedophilic relationships without mentioning monogamous committed consensual homosexual relationships.

>The ability to reproduce is not a valid reason to prevent marriage. Many people are infertile in heterosexual relationships. Nature does not demonstrate heterosexual behavior as the only means of coupling. Human sex organs clearly physiologically are not perfectly meant for each other regarding reproduction or pleasure and one cannot rely on those sentiment to limit sexual expression.

>I would also say my and many others' primary source is scripture and that the context of the verses regarding homosexuality and what is described as sin in the Bible are not easily interpreted.

>I don't know if I agree with everything in the following post but it addresses interpreting many passages in the Bible associated with homosexuality.

>http://www.gaychurch.org/homosexuality-and-the-bible/the-bible-christianity-and-homosexuality/

>From the [their position paper] linked pdf:
'homosexuality as “contrary to nature.”' It isn't and I think this is misinterpreting the passage. Nature has plenty of homosexuality.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual_behavior_in_animals

>"Although homosexual behavior came about as a result of the fall" This is not logical if there is an old evolving earth and no cosmic fall.

>There has been no real success at suppressing homosexual desires even in Christian movements. Sexuality is not entirely fixed but not entirely malleable. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ex-ex-gay

>If one does not believe is strict gender roles, which also are more socially constructed than innate, there is no inherent negative consequence to a committed, homosexual relationship. Single parenthood may not be ideal but we don't tell those people they are terrible immoral parents. How does someone born with ambiguous genitals or brain conform to a mold they cannot fit in? Note: There is a significant difference between homosexual urges and other socially destructive urges of infidelity or pedophilia.

>"Because God said so" is not moral reasoning, it is legalism which in other areas we strive to avoid. What other parts of the Bible are to be followed irrationally? Other moral commands have a rational explanation for being unacceptable.

>Where are the pastors using passages of Proverbs and other places condemning obesity of people in and out of church? The Bible talks about it more than verses used against homosexuals. There is more financial and health burdens on individuals and society from the over a third of Americans who are massively overweight.

>I appreciate the discussion, and frankly, REDACTED church is actually much more rational compared to many of the other churches I have been visiting. I am available this evening and tomorrow if you want to meet in person.

>Thank you for your time.'

I highly recommend the book Bible, Gender, and Sexuality by James Brownson (link: https://www.amazon.com/Bible-Gender-Sexuality-Reframing-Relationships/dp/0802868630/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1517791982&sr=8-1&keywords=bible+gender+and+sexuality). It helped me come to terms with both my faith and my sexuality (I'm 23 and gay). There are components of the Bible which, while divinely inspired, are nonetheless >2,000 years old. I don't hesitate to suggest that the Bible is not the healthiest source of understanding relationships that pertain to 2018.

You're gay, and God made each of us wonderfully and fearfully created. Congratulations on admitting it to yourself and being out about it here. I can't help but believe that God would want you to be in a loving, caring, relationship filled with joy and thanksgiving.

Edit: I also don't think the authors of the Bible had the clearest understanding of Biology. Human sexuality is not something chosen, but simply a component of an individual's identity. And while its very easy to say "the Bible prohibits homosexual relationships", it, to me, fails to resonate with the deep human need that most of us have - to be with in a loving relationship with another. I tend to think that, as we uncover more and more of the nature of reality and of Creation, God's Creation, we must revisit scripture in light of the nature of Creation as it is (IE Genesis is not, cannot, be literal, the Earth is not 6,000 years old). Along the same line, sexuality is not a choice, we are born more or less some kind of something (may be gay, maybe straight, maybe asexual, or anything in between). And as that's the reality of the world, perhaps the prohibitions of homosexuality need to be revisited, and reunderstood, not as literal prohibitions but rather as components of a complicated text that is heavily influenced by the culture(s) it was written in.

I have three books on my shelves at the moment that I'd gladly recommend:

Torn by Justin Lee. Outside of the US the book is called Unconditional.

Bible Gender Sexuality by James V. Brownson.

God and the Gay Christian by Matthew Vines.