Reddit reviews Boundaries Updated and Expanded Edition: When to Say Yes, How to Say No To Take Control of Your Life

Boundaries is a great book about developing this skill. It has some Christian references (which you may or may not be into), but it is such a useful book.

So lemme get this straight, friend:

1 - Mother, father, and sister do not work. This video clip is a joke, but it seems like it might reflect the situation. Not sure on the sister's age, but I'm presuming she is of working age. Just out of curiosity, what do they do all day?

2 - Your dad gambled away all your family's money, your mom left him, and then you cleaned up the mess.

3 - You send your mom money because... "she can't maintain herself", you send your sister money because ... ???, and you send your dad money because... your family guilted you into it? After you cleared his gambling debts?

4 - You make $70K/year in WA, which is to say, "median salary". You aren't rich, or have a particularly high income for the area. Median salary in most states is "enough to support a family", which, in most cases, is your own.

5 - This doesn't particularly leave you with enough resources when considering the budget:

1800 rent, 500 car, 500 groceries (very high), misc 100, saving 500, 1300 mom/sis, 500 dad = 5200. Notable omission of "bills". It is an inevitability that you will have an emergency (new tires for the car will run ya $800 nowadays), and your emergency saving isn't particularly enough to cover it (I budget $120/month/car in repairs alone, and do them myself the majority of the time).

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Would you give a drink to an alcoholic? Does it help them? This is what you are doing to your dad. This is probably what you are doing for your mom/sister.

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Don't get me wrong, I'm all for supporting family. That said, here is a prescriptive fix:

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1 - I am willing to support you, as a $1-for-$1 match on whatever you earn, up to one half of the current subsidy, starting next month. If mom/sister can figure out a way to earn $650/month combined, this will be equal. If they can earn $1300/month, then their total situation will be improved to $1950/month. Note that this is a total of 32.5 hours per month at $10/hour. This is a laughably low level of work. As an example, in my city, "taking money and handing out tickets" for a special event pays $11. I found this job inside of 30 seconds on craigslist. They are hiring for 11 positions for a job today. Finding "any job will do" work is trivial. You should be able to bang out $100/day pretty easily in garbage-short-term work if they are in America.

2 - Dad - same offer.

--- Note - this cuts your obligation in half. This is a "stop the bleeding" fix which frees up enough space in the budget so that a lay-off doesn't sink you.

--- Note - My family went through some stuff with my step-brother (he went to jail). They attached all kinds of strings to the money, which included if you live here, you have to do this list of chores daily, work out every day, read a book for 30 minutes each day, be showered by 7am, fill out one job application every day, etc. You are allowed to slip up 3 times per week, but the 4th occasion puts you on the street. "I would be better off if I lived at a homeless shelter, they wouldn't make me do all this shit" "That is a choice that you are free to make". The basic theme of the strings was "living here sucks and has all kinds of bullshit-but-good-for-you rules - if you moved out your life would be better".

--- Additional note - this should get the family off your back. You have a pretty easy defense to the "look at your poor mother, she is living in poverty" thing. You say "I am willing to double whatever money she makes for herself. If she makes $0, then that is her choice".

3 - LEARN THE WORD "NO". Just, Jesus Christ dude. My family wanted me to support my fathers' gambling habit - so I did? Grow a backbone.

--- Note - Additionally, I would like you to say some other words, like "if you do not think that I am providing adequate support, I would welcome your help in assisting them", and "I am supporting them".

4 - Put timelines on it. "12 months from now, this is getting cut to $0". You need a way that you aren't in this situation forever.

- Note - this is the long-term fix.

My three rules, they don't have to be yours but they work for me:

1. I don't loan money. Whenever money is given, it is a gift. I do not expect to see it again and I don't want to see it again.
   
2. If the underlying cause of money problems is immaturity and misbehavior, like taking a vacation instead of paying rent, the only possible way they're getting money is if we address the misbehavior first. I am completely within my rights to do this because it's my money.
   
3. If the person is truly down on their luck, I am extremely excited to give. It is one of the reasons I want to make money, to help people that need it. If I am not giving anonymously, I will also provide emotional support, and want to make sure the person in need is truly taken care of.
   
   Also, I hope this is useful:
   
   I'm hearing that this is a major boundary violation. Healthy boundaries are the foundation for healthy relationships. Please, please, please go read this book: "Boundaries: When to Say Yes, How to Say No To Take Control of Your Life", Henry Cloud
   
   Something I heard that I love: "No is a complete sentence." If you don't want to do something, you are completely within your rights to just say No. It's your money. At that point, if the person in question goes on to guilt trip, get mad at you, blame you, persecute you, play the victim, or get exceptionally needy or clingy, you have a boundaries issue.

Edited to add some practical resources.

As my flair notes, I'm not married, so take this with a grain of salt. However, this situation happened to my parents before they were married. It has had a profoundly negative influence on my life. Only recently did I realize that family drama has shaped my view of marriage and built an intense fear of opening myself to the situation that your wife and my mom experienced.

1. Go to counseling. Now. Everyone has said this, but it can be hard and take a while. Since it sounds like you are outside of the US, I would encourage you to try online counseling. Focus on the Family has a partnership with an app. Try to schedule an appointment as quickly as possible. Depending on your own family dynamics, you may need individual and couples counseling.
   
2. Next, pick up Boundaries by Cloud and Townsend. They also have a version called Boundaries in Marriage.
   
3. Look at secular resources. While the r/JustNoMil sub specifically addresses this issue, it's not a good environment. The advice has turned toxic there, and they are hostile to Christians. However, their resource page is very good.
   
4. Learn about FOG. This stands for fear, obligation and guilt. You refer to it as "programming." This is how your parents have trained you to respond and why you struggle to recognize that what your mom is doing is wrong. The term comes from the book Emotional Blackmail about having family members with a personalty disorder. I'm not diagnosing your mom, but this site has great resources on how to handle dysfunctional family dynamics.
   
5. Set your expectations. Even if you wake up and fully grasp what your mother has done, don't expect her to change. The burden will be on you to recognize her bad behavior and protect your wife and family from it. Dismiss any hopes that your mom will recognize that what she did was wrong and suddenly become your wife's BFF. Your family will likely never look like a Norman Rockwell painting, but you can improve things going forward and work towards rebuilding your marriage.
   
6. Understand generational differences. The gap in your ages is not a big deal in the long-run, but unfortunately, you and your wife are on different sides of a major divide. Both of you were literally born in two different worlds. Your wife was born before the internet and the Iron Curtain fell. You were born after those night-and-day changes. That affected parenting far more than we realize. Between the gap when you were born, parents transitioned from Helicopters (Xennials and older Millennials) to bulldozers. There is a stark difference in how people were raised who are over 30 and those who are under 30. In the past few years, we've noticed it more and more in the workplace. I'm 37. I have far, far more in common with someone who is 47 than someone who is 27. The 27 yo was practically raised in a different universe than me.
   
7. Limit visits! Even if you had the perfect family, a 3-week invasion of your in-laws would drive any wife crazy. I absolutely adore my parents, but I would probably want to kill my mom if she visited for 3 weeks.
   
   FYI: you tagged this post as NSFW, so a lot of people subscribed to this sub may not see it.

It seems likely that she may have a personality disorder. The behavior you describe would make life difficult for any child. I'm sorry that you've had to deal with her acting like this while you were growing up, and it sounds like you are still dealing with her acting out.

Have you read the book Understanding the Borderline Mother by Christine Lawson? If not, it may help you identify more of her behaviors and understand how they may have affected you. Lawson describes various ways that BPD can be expressed that can appear different on the surface but are all tied to the same disorder.

It's awfully hard to love someone who is so emotionally volatile. One thing I've found helpful is to establish and enforce boundaries that will give you space to be a healthy person, to be yourself rather than an extension of her. The book Boundaries by Clound and Townsend is an excellent introduction to the idea and can teach you how to begin setting boundaries.

Ultimately, though, your mom may choose to not respect your boundaries, in which case you will need to create separation from her in order to be emotionally safe and healthy.

Read this: https://www.amazon.com/Boundaries-Updated-Expanded-When-Control-ebook/dp/B06XFKNB2Y/ref=sr_1_fkmr3_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1527534196&sr=8-1-fkmr3&keywords=saying+no+to+say+yes+everyday+boundaries+and+pastoral+excellence

I have only heard good things about this book, from Orthodox Christians to Catholics to Protestants. In my ridiculously armchair opinion, there may be a boundary problem between you and your wife (yes, even spouses must establish boundaries with each other) that's contributing to overall dissatisfaction in the marriage.

And it's not going to get any closer to being paid off if she's paying for a fucking Lexus.

How does she expect this half-million dollar house to support her, realistically? Let's just say for the sake of argument that she paid the mortgage off before she retired. Then what? She's going to sell it and live off that (plus SS)? Well, it's a reasonable amount of money, so OK.

Except that's not how it's going to work because it's not as if the minute she turns 65 (or whatever), she suddenly ceases to care about how wealthy she looks or suddenly doesn't care about the luxuries she's been enjoying, be it good wine or nice trips or whatever. She's not going to start living like a woman who's depending on SS and modest withdrawals. She's going to keep making poor decisions, and she's going to come to you for help whenever she gets behind on a bill.

I've never read it, but there's a book that "everyone" recommends in these cases that may be of use--Boundaries.

The best therapist I ever had recommended this book to me almost 30 years ago, and it turned out to be the key that unlocked one of my chains. I hope it helps.

Boundaries by Cloud and Townsend. https://smile.amazon.com/Boundaries-Updated-Expanded-When-Control-ebook/dp/B06XFKNB2Y/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1538327070&sr=8-1&pi=AC_SX236_SY340_QL65&keywords=boundaries+book

I think that is a good decision. If you have time, possibly read Robert Frost's "The Road Not Taken". You have probably read this before or come across someone talking about it. It is a good illustration about choice. The poem is somewhat ambiguous for the most part and seems to leave the reader up to their own interpretation. But Frost's intention is that after carefully reading it and re-reading you will realize that choice is choice. That sometimes one choice is not necessarily demonstrably better than another, despite how they may seem. That poem has very special meaning to me for a few reasons. First, my original inclination was that he meant the road less taken was obviously the better road. Spoiler, not the case. Second, because his more cleverly plaid out poem illustrates that sometimes it is not the choice that is important, but the journey. That whichever choice you make, you are still on a journey and consistently concentrating on regret is not a great recipe for success. (for reference: https://www.theparisreview.org/blog/2015/09/11/the-most-misread-poem-in-america/)

Now, on to tips for what you may do. Your dilemma seems very similar to that of introvert/extrovert relationships. In the sense that you don't need as much interaction as your partner does. I would suggest looking up tips relating to this phenomenom for introvert-extrovert pairings. Here is a link to get your started on ideas:

https://blogs.psychcentral.com/love-matters/2018/05/15-ways-to-blossom-if-youre-in-an-introvert-extrovert-relationship/

Also, learning someone's love language and how to speak in it can make a massive improvement. It can help you maximize your time and interactions with those you love by learning to communicate effectively with them. Here is a link to learn more about that (caution the site has a bit of shameless self promotion, but it is very highly respected):

https://www.5lovelanguages.com/

Learning about how to recognize, set, communicate and respect boundaries in a relationship. Boundaries are important, they help us define how we interact with ourselves, loved ones, and the world in general. Understanding our boundaries and properly communicating them to those around us can help reduce anxiety, social miscues, pointless arguments, etc. I particularly enjoyed the books by Dr Henry Cloud and John Townsend. It is often written as more of a story / learning experience and uses many practical examples to illustrate the points being made.

https://www.amazon.com/Boundaries-Relationships-Knowing-Protecting-Enjoying/dp/155874259X

https://www.amazon.com/Boundaries-Updated-Expanded-When-Control-ebook/dp/B06XFKNB2Y

https://www.amazon.com/Boundaries-Marriage-Dr-Henry-Cloud/dp/1480554995

Hopefully these suggestions can help get you started. I would also discuss these with your counselor and get his opinion/suggestions. See what he makes of all of this. Understand also that part of a therapist/counselor's job is to listen and get to know you. They need to establish a baseline, to learn to decipher what you are saying and not saying, to get a sense of your interaction with others, etc. So a lot of sessions are typically spent coaxing you to talk and open up more so they can become more informed about you specifically. After all, we are often very complex and yet simple at the same time. There is general advice that can typically be given, but you don't really need an expert for that. What you need is someone who can see and understand the complexity, and not just the first or second layers. And this individual has to do this in minimal time as you may only get a few visits from your insurance. But they are there to help you and they do want to see your best interests met, that is their job. So don't be shy to give them specific scenarios and occassionally ask for a specific opinion. They are more apt to give you specific advice more quickly for individual events or cases.

As others said, and from personal experience, sounds like you should work on self-confidence and boundaries.

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Haven't read it yet so can't tell you if it's good but have been recommended this book: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B06XFKNB2Y/?coliid=I7YNPER4YT56B&colid=1Y9A0HXCP81F4&psc=0&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it

That sucks but you probably don't have much choice. Do you really have to interact with her much when you're spending most time away from home? It doesn't sound like a major problem given that you've already endured 18 years living with her.

If it's a lot of pain for you to go back and meet her, why not work during the holidays and just go back for a few days. Can make friends in other places or even visit your high-school friends where they study or go on trips together.

Maybe learn to set healthy boundaries now that you've basically an adult. You're 18 years old. She shouldn't tell you what to wear. If you set your boundaries properly she will respect you for it. She also wants to keep the relationship with her daughter, I'm sure. This book may help: https://www.amazon.com/Boundaries-Updated-Expanded-When-Control-ebook/dp/B06XFKNB2Y/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1549964827&sr=8-3&keywords=boundaries

It also sounds like your mother doesn't have much empathy and you don't feel understood by her. Perhaps a best friend or a boyfriend could take that role of giving you support whenever you feel down etc.

Addiction, as others have said. I've been there. Only way is no contact. Know that, believe it.

Boundaries Updated and Expanded Edition: When to Say Yes, How to Say No To Take Control of Your Life https://www.amazon.com/dp/B06XFKNB2Y/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_LjIzCb9YFAYDB

This and meditation helped me. It isn't easy to break thought patterns, but I know you can do it.

Congratulations. Quitting FWB with an ex is tough! That's a good, strong step. There is a book about boundaries that really helped me developed healthier relationships. It is a Christ-inspired book but scientific reasoning is present in the book. If you not into Christianity, then look at the biblical references as mythology. I am Christian but I still like horoscopes and my username here is an Egyptian god. I was a huge fan of Greek mythology.

https://www.amazon.com/Boundaries-Updated-Expanded-When-Control-ebook/dp/B06XFKNB2Y/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1539281654&sr=8-2&keywords=boundaries

Check out the sample at least.

It might be a good idea to look up enmeshed family resources. This article explains the idea of enmeshment (unhealthy emotional boundaries), and steps to take. It sounds like your in-laws have very poor boundaries, and perhaps your wife isn’t even realizing it.

I would also suggest reading Boundaries so you can become more adept as expressing your needs and what you don’t find acceptable. I don’t agree with everything they espouse, but it can be a good starting point.

Hope your marriage gets better and better.

>(or maybe they have and just haven't told us)

Very likely. I didn't know a sister, BIL, and 4 cousins had left until I started talking about me having left. They popped out of the woodwork and let me know they had left. You are most likely NOT alone.

Your feelings are normal. My wife and I went through very similar feelings. That is how I KNEW I was doing it right. Why? Because my biggest fear was the fear of disappointing my parents. It wasn't god telling me I was out of line. Nope, disappointing another human. That told me it was a cult. The hard part is to break through that fear.

If you can, read the book Boundaries before you announce to the world you are done. It will give you ways to control what you control and to let go what you can't control. Mormons teach you to try to control what you can't and then be shamed when you can't control it.

When you find yourself freed from the cult, you will find your life will become better. Mine took years. I was constantly finding mormon culture in my life. I had to make it into a game of what will I find next, just so that I didn't go nuts when I discovered that I still had mormon culture in my life habits.

I have not personally read this book (yet), but I have seen it recommended and praised time and time again:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B06XFKNB2Y/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1

I’m sure it’s available at libraries and probably as a digital library loan if you have Overdrive.