Reddit reviews King, Warrior, Magician, Lover: Rediscovering the Archetypes of the Mature Masculine

The book itself it a hack-job hit piece on men, and Ben Sixsmith's review – which is what's linked – is a great takedown of Plank's "work."

If anyone is interested in further reading regarding actual masculinity and what men face today, here's a small reading list:

• King, Warrior, Magician, Lover: Rediscovering the Archetypes of the Mature Masculine, by Robert Moore and Douglas Gillette [Both of these two gentlemen work is generally worth reading but this is the best breakdown of the positive and negative sides of masculinity that I've found. It also equipped me to start tackling my own masculinity in earnest; especially once I had the "immature masculine" models laid out before me in this book.]
  
• The Boy Crisis: Why Our Boys Are Struggling and What We Can Do About It, by Warren Farrell PhD and John Gray PhD. [Don't let the title mislead you; Farrell does an excellent job of identifying the overarching issues facing men today and from where they seem to stem. His use of "you're son" in the place of a proverbial "you" takes some getting used to, but it is every bit an eve-opening, depressing, motivating, and forthright read. This was tied for the top of this list with 'KWML. The importance of a present and engaged father cannot be ignored any longer.']
  
• The Myth of Male Power, by Warren Pharrell PhD. [Another hard-hitting contribution from Farrell, this entry challenges the dogma of the entire concept of a patriarchy an does so well-armed with stats, studies, and facts. Men being indoctrinated into being expendable with the illusion of gaining/having power could be (I believe it's VERY likely) a huge contributor to the increasing plight of men in western societies, despite the deluge of rhetoric claiming men are so powerful they oppress everyone else.]
  
  I may even make a separate post for this because it's very important to me. I am in the middle of researching and writing a book that, I hope, does what Plank's drivel claimed to do. The materials here are just a few selections I've come across in my research. Maybe I can elaborate more on my work if I make a more comprehensive 'recommended reading' post re: masculinity. I'd love to see more discussion around this as I believe it's exactly the kind of thing to tackle in a community like this.

Robert Moore and Douglas Gillette - King, Warrior, Magician, Lover : Rediscovering the Archetypes of the Mature Masculine

https://www.amazon.co.uk/King-Warrior-Magician-Lover-Rediscovering/dp/0062506064#byline_secondary_view_div_1540027296351

I found this deeply interesting and useful :)

I recently read King, Warrior, Magician, Lover by Robert Moore and Douglas Gillette.

It's somewhat pop-psychology. But it's based on the Jungian archetypes, which I've always been fascinated by. If you can get past the New Age-y stuff, it's a great read.

Here's the AMA I did after I finished it.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Iron-John-Book-About-Men/dp/0712610707
https://www.amazon.co.uk/King-Warrior-Magician-Lover-Rediscovering/dp/0062506064
If he's not much of a reader there's a great YouTube series on King, Warrior, Magician, Lover by 'Like Stories of Old'. About 10 minutes each and examines how films portray these male archetypes.

Constitutional. Chad's just going to catch a dozen STDs and die in a bar fight before he's 30, like the Bourbons did.

I'd be happiest with a system that was close to the US, but with a king instead of a president and a bit more decentralization of power. But I think that even a crowned republic is better than an uncrowned one; Jung believed implicitly, Lewis explicitly, that a country is happiest with a king.

If those archetypes interested you, I'd suggest checking out the book the video was probably based on.

Anyway, I think your choice of classes is pretty much spot on. I'd add that for the wizard, you'll want to specialize in transmutation.

The only problem is that the archetypes are meant to be cumulative. The fully actualized man is a warrior, a lover, a magician and a king, like the ending of that popular John Hughes movie.

>What I am saying is that There are men and boys that do have male figures in their life. There's no dearth of male role models. They just don't resemble the 2D archetypes of the highly gendered 1950's.

What I'm saying has nothing to do with 1950s. But there is a dearth of male role models. My point was that the existence of fathers and coaches is not evidence of anything.

>My issue is that the OP (and now you) are saying male role models don't exist because they don't exist for you.

No I was bringing up my own experience as evidence that the mere presence of a father in someone's life does not necessarily equal the presence of a mentor.

>The modern trend is to have fathers and male family members being more involved. So that raising children is not something solely in the realm of women. This is a good thing.

>Distant fathers were common when gender stereotypes were the norm. Younger men want a more active role in their children's' lives than their fathers or grandfathers did. I can already see it in my age group.

I agree this is a good thing, but it's not a true solution to the problem. In King Warrior Magician Lover Robert L. Moore sums up the problem pretty well. It's not just a lack of male involvement with their children, it's a "crisis in the masculine ritual process."

Real male mentorship involves a mature man or group of mature men bringing a boy into a manhood in some kind of formalized or ritualized process. For this to occur a 'sacred male space' and presence of mature men (elders) is required. Both of these things are in critically short supply.

>So going back to you not growing up with a male figure. RP points it's finger at feminism as the culprit. To me that shows they don't understand. Especially when feminism is one of the primary forces responsible for fathers having a more active role than they did prior.

Feminism is partly to blame, and a mature feminism should have no problem accepting responsibility for some of the mistakes it has made. For one, feminism has spent significant energy destroying male spaces my forcing them to open up to women. In many cases this way just and necessary, but the reality is this that men and women need 'sacred spaces' for themselves, and feminism has taken this away. Now the closest things are immature organizations like gangs, the military, and many fraternities or sororities.

Another way feminism has contributed to this problem is by trying to break down masculinity and say that its unnecessary, that it doesn't exist, it's harmful and violent, should be deconstructed, etc. In essence feminism has confused immature masculinity (aka patriarchy) with masculinity itself, and as a result attacked them both.

>If you want to fix a problem, you have to understand the underlying causes behind it. Poverty and financial problems, neighborhood and resource distribution, education.

I agree about the importance of the underlying cause, however, I think you have no identified this cause correctly. If anything, problems in education or poverty are related to the more emotional/psychological/existential/spiritual whatever you want to call it issue that I am raising.

>Notice, sports are encouraged to 1) get young men off the street and 2) have contact with a coach. Sports coaches can have an incredible impact on youth.

Again, the existence of sports, which in this day and age is basically a trivialization of masculine energy anyway, does not necessarily meet any of needs I have described. I think OP, like many men, is aware of a serious decay within masculinity, and is looking for answers.

The end of Franny and Zooey by J.D. Salinger is really good. It's a short book, worth a read.

Mindfulness in Plain English is a really useful book.

I recommend some Robert Bly. His classic book is Iron John. He writes about being a man beautifully.

King Warrior Lover Magician is a great book for men. http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/0062506064?pc_redir=1410530189&robot_redir=1

There are some great talks with Robert Bly in audible. I listen to them at least once a year. http://www.amazon.com/s?ie=UTF8&page=1&rh=n%3A283155%2Cp_27%3ARobert%20Bly%2Cp_n_feature_browse-bin%3A1240885011

As mentioned about Carnegie is a must. Otherwise I'd recommend King, Warrior, Magician, Lover, Staying Healthy with the Seasons (some of the nutrition info is out dated but the core of the book is still great), The Book of Five Rings.

you sound young a naive, not receiving or perhaps accepting the respect and acknowledgment of your families love - not realizing it yet, that love of the self and life. Really loving life. Maybe because you have not come close to death, I mean really close to cold, dark, death. More so, you sound like all fresh and stupid young boys do right when they leave high school; assured of their understanding of the world, an understanding that drastically changes every three to five years. Until one day, thirty years from now you look back and say, "I knew nothing when I was young". It's then that you realize this was all a feeling. One long feeling you had, that lasted days and years, as time seemed to slip by so painfully slow. Where a gut feeling of needed mobility took over and forced your fate into a position that only forgiveness and toughing it out can save for. A feeling of longing; Longing for adventure and a chance to prove oneself - a man's journey or hero quest. This feeling in men (and women) has been known since ancient times, only they had positive ways of promoting such innate human drives. Today, we have fraternities and the military, the factory or gangs. All shadow concepts of masculinity, all captivities shaded in brotherhood and silly concepts of sacrifice.

This is what the US military hopes for, besides all the other young and stupid children who knocked up a girlfriend and need money, or inner city kids who need a direction outside of gang life. The world you live in has been designed this way. To take the poor and wanting, and to place them in the machine. You're not going to fight for freedom, that fight belongs at a poll, and in protest, in letters to senators and special interest groups. The only freedom you'll find toting a gun in some foreign land is the same freedom men from constitutional nations always find, a small stipend to spend while corporations colonize foreign markets and people who would never sit by you at a table bank on your ignorance and hard work. You will be yelled at and broken, all for bits of ribbon or a tab. Told you're finally a man now, that you have found discipline, that you gained 'leadership skills'. All the while these traits were inside you, never on the outside, waiting to be emboldened and brought out of you; waiting for a moment of maturity and expression.

The only thing you seek in the military is a chance at expression, for something that is already there, just waiting for an outlet. If you don't want to die, don't be a soldier. If you're patriotic, then your nearest fight for liberty is at home against corruption and greed. If you want to be a man, become one of peace - because I assure you wholeheartedly, there are plenty of ex soldiers who are now men in pieces. Broken, berated and disturbed by the horrors that is war and a tighter bottom line.

Coast guard, if you must. But remember, all your life you will be searching for some semblance of inner peace, and that will never be found holding a weapon.

Works to consider: http://www.amazon.com/King-Warrior-Magician-Lover-Rediscovering/dp/0062506064

http://www.amazon.com/Fire-Belly-Being-Sam-Keen/dp/0553351370/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1373858243&sr=1-1&keywords=fire+in+the+belly

http://www.amazon.com/Iron-John-Book-About-Men/dp/0306813769/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1373858269&sr=1-1&keywords=iron+john

http://www.amazon.com/Killing-Psychological-Cost-Learning-Society/dp/0316040932/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1373858285&sr=1-1&keywords=on+killing

https://www.amazon.com/King-Warrior-Magician-Lover-Rediscovering/dp/0062506064

Better off reading this book

https://www.amazon.com/King-Warrior-Magician-Lover-Rediscovering/dp/0062506064

There are several. Here’s just a few I’ve enjoyed.

King, Warrior, Magician, Lover: Rediscovering the Archetypes of the Mature Masculine https://www.amazon.com/dp/0062506064/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_04ugDbXGHB18G

Iron John: A Book about Men https://www.amazon.com/dp/0306824264/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_h5ugDb5X2WAJ8

The Hero with a Thousand Faces (The Collected Works of Joseph Campbell) https://www.amazon.com/dp/1577315936/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_y5ugDbNTGC2GM

It's probably "King, Warrior, Magician, Lover: Rediscovering the Archetypes of the Mature Masculine" by Robert Moore and Douglas Gillette. Although that book seems to only talk about 4 and not seven archetypes.

So far all I know is within these small videos: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLNwwHxpB-dkzeeyLTJKco49tokvT25dt3

In a similar method one might use mythology to observe reoccurring themes in human values and archetypes this guy does it with movies and connects it to the contents of this book which describes 4 archetypes having to do mostly with masculinity.

I personally identify most strongly with the magician and perhaps the lover as well altho mostly with the shadow functions of the lover sadly

From my personal understanding, I think they're talking about archetypes of masculinity and it comes from this:

http://www.amazon.com/King-Warrior-Magician-Lover-Rediscovering/dp/0062506064

and you can get a primer of the book from this:

http://www.artofmanliness.com/2011/07/31/king-warrior-magician-lover-introduction/

and further more, you can listen to David DeAngelo / Dr. Paul talk about it on this:

http://www.last.fm/music/David+DeAngelo/On+Being+a+Man+%28Who+Naturally+Attracts+Women%29

A good book I've read recently about understanding your self was King, Warrior, Magician, Lover. Really helped me understand what was missing/imbalanced in my personality.

This is so normal, so common place, that I'm willing to say you are going through a very normal ( albeit an uncomfortable) phase.

This might sound a bit cliche, but the second you find direction...everything falls into place. Finding said direction is the hard part. But once you get it, it's almost magical how easier things become. Speaking from experience, I'd say that that should be your primary focus if you want to get out of this rut. Look for a place you want to be or a person you want to be and work towards it (give yourself a 203 year plan to get there so you don't beat yourself up when you fall short).

I have a few tips to help you on this trip.

• Stick with good friends. People who make you "feel better" are NOT good friends. People who challenge you, motivate you, and make your life richer are good friends.
  
  
• Throw people you don't like to the curb and never look back. "Nice" is the death of boldness. Be bold, even if it means letting people down, even if it means flat out pissing some people off. Obviously don't go looking for a fight, but if a genuine rotten person enters your life, tell them to go fuck themselves or flat out walk away. Doing this to bullies and assholes makes you feel vastly more confident.
  
  
• Walk in the woods. This clears you head so quickly that it's kind of odd.
  
  
• Hang out with people who are different than you, if only to get a taste of how others live. This includes members of the opposite sex platonically.
  
  
• Do something creative once a week. Write, paint, speak in public, whatever. I personally like to cook.
  
  
• Travel to a place you'd never think to go, annually if you can. Getting out of your town and seeing the world can really, really alter how you see the world. And it'll help you figure out what your major priorities are quickly.
  
  
• Avoid video games. I defend those as much as I can as entertainment pieces, but they are overall not good for you emotionally or socially. And no, online play is not social play. I'm not saying don't play them ever, but you should never consider video games to be a big part of your life or identity. And on that note, avoid "gamers" and people who call themselves that. You don't need that in your life.
  
  I'm assuming you're guy because it's reddit and I know how to work odds, so I'd recommend this book right away. It helped me through my funk and it's a great guide to channeling positive masculinity. I also recommend 'Men are from Mars; Women are from Venus' as a tool to help understand yourself and women, and the book Siddhartha (fucking excellent story of self discovery).
  
  

I recommend this book to those who are thinking the same questions, how to get what you want without causing harm.

http://www.amazon.com/King-Warrior-Magician-Lover-Rediscovering/dp/0062506064

Lots to unpack here! I think you've done an excellent job of listing all the things that are contributing. With this list, it is no surprise that sex is suffering. Sex/intimacy can often be an early indicator (canary in the coal mine) that something is wrong.

It really feels like you both need some help with body, mind, and soul. I could post what I use, but that's a novel.

I know that when finances are rough, it effects everything and makes everything much harder. Maybe you can both work as partners to address this as the highest priority--with the statement that you will work on more than one thing, but bills gotta get paid.

The other part of this is that we all need a purpose. Can he get a $15/hr job and really work on showing up and keeping that job? It can have a massive mental boost.

35? I highly suggest that you put whatever you were in the past...in the past. It doesn't matter if you were HL or if he was. Our bodies change, our responsibilities change, and our New Relationship Energy for our partner goes away. We're left with having to figure out how to be real adults and actualize our best self, and figure out how to long term couple.

I recommend (a lot) a few experts to watch and read up on. One might have a voice that speaks best to you. None of these links are long, but they all can make it clear that it is not hopeless, and what you are going through is common.

I'm very optimistic because of the positive changes I've experienced. I'm happy to discuss more if needed.

Recommendations:

• On what marriage really is.
  
• On how our view of sex is often wrong. This and This.
  
• On women's sex issues particularly.
  
• On him growing into an actual adult. This book can be a bit hard to understand, so here is a pretty good overview of the concepts....which should resonate with you as what you want from him
  
  

No, some books I listen to multiple times. I’m on listen 4 for this book which I recommend.
King, Warrior, Magician, Lover: Rediscovering the Archetypes of the Mature Masculine https://www.amazon.com/dp/0062506064/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_.NFGAb40RTCMQ

For those more interested in this theory and approach to masculinity, andsuch, check out this book: http://www.amazon.com/King-Warrior-Magician-Lover-Rediscovering/dp/0062506064

Try either [toward manhood] (https://www.amazon.com/Toward-Manhood-Into-Wilderness-Soul/dp/069269238X) or warrior, King, magician, lover.

Also, from Mulan:

>Be a man

>We must be swift as the coursing river

>Be a man

>With all the force of a great typhoon

>Be a man

>With all the strength of a raging fire

>Mysterious as the dark side of the moon

That's what a man is. Do all that without being Gaston from Beauty and the Beast. It's tough growing up without positive male role models and society so afraid of past masculinity it wants to castrate you but just keep at it.

King, Warrior, Magician, Lover - by Moore and Gillette

Its a short book, but a good one. It explores the classic male archetypes and how they can be applied to one's own life. The authors also went on to write 4 more books, each further developing the archetypes. It really spells out how to develop masculinity in the proper sense and how to recognize and avoid the demonized counterparts. I wish I read it when I was 15.

Carl Jung.. between him and Siggy Freud they built the foundation of modern psychology; Jung was Freud's student, and is more steeped in symbolism, archetypes, and exploring the collective unconscious through dreams, myth, and projections of masculine/feminine energies which both sexes carry with them, undeveloped, controlled by our 'shadow' selves, or repressed darker sides that control our behaviours through unconscious needs, and desires which are created in our infancy and formative years.
Here's a good place to start, in my opinion.
https://www.amazon.ca/King-Warrior-Magician-Lover-Rediscovering/dp/0062506064/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1503876553&sr=8-1&keywords=warrior+magician+king+lover

See, the Jungians [see the wise king as a personal ideal,] (https://www.amazon.com/King-Warrior-Magician-Lover-Rediscovering/dp/0062506064) as well as societal.

Sorry, oh, and here.

This is my sarcastic way of pointing out that I'm talking about a chapter from a book. The relevant part isn't more than some ten pages, but I'm not going to type them out.

Ive been reading you posts and you should really check out the book I mentioned. http://www.amazon.com/King-Warrior-Magician-Lover-Rediscovering/dp/0062506064

There have been plenty of studies that show women dont handle high pressure situations as well as men. They dont crave the responsibility and stress like men do. That's why by default men have to be leaders in the world. But Being a GOOD leader isn't a selfish act like most feminists see it. It is one of the most selfless acts, it is an act born from sacrifice. It means staying up late working so you and your own can eat better, it means making necessary decisions that are not immediately popular, it can mean something as simple as picking where to eat. I see this all the time, do you know why women defer to you always about this? Because its such a primitive instinct to be fed. They trust your judgment and feel safe around you, they know you will do the right thing. It is a badge of honor.

I feel like Mega Man would work only if they took noted from Alita in terms of action and characterization.

For those who have complaints about Alita, the movie is great considering it took the OVA's and Mangas pacing and packed it into the movie as faithful as possible. It took most of the emotional beats and spirit of the source material and emphasized the characters nicely.

Having Mega Man take a similar approach to the ever growing child like yet positive can-do-ness that Alita has would make him an easier character to take. Dr. Light takes a more old wise man role in the Hero's Journey, and Wiley being this shadow version of Light (Shadow Magician archetype from [King, Warrior, Magician, Lover Rediscovering the Archetypes of the Mature Masculine by Douglas Gillette and Robert L. Moore](King, Warrior, Magician, Lover: Rediscovering the Archetypes of the Mature Masculine https://www.amazon.com/dp/0062506064/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_EgVtDbNWBE4WC).)

And then add a tragic foil to Megaman that is Protoman and you have your self a very solid story for families about Fathers and Sons, becoming a real boy, and adapting to one's reality as well as what defines the call of duty.

Thanks for attending my ted talk. Please direct me to the nearest movie writing nerd subreddit.

Aristotle and many others go on about male, female, physical/sexual traits, I can't cover my years of philosophical and psychological courses and book readings with you briefly online, however I think there is truth to both the masculine and feminine archetypes. A good book built on Carl Jung's theory is King, Warrior, Lover, Magician, which is about the Male traits.

https://www.amazon.com/King-Warrior-Magician-Lover-Rediscovering/dp/0062506064

He shows how men can become unbalanced and what those archetypes are.

Here is a good blog post about those archetypes - http://www.artofmanliness.com/2011/07/31/king-warrior-magician-lover-introduction/

Also the professor Jordan B Peterson talks a lot about these traits on his youtube channel, he even breaks down traits of the Buddha, interesting stuff.