Reddit reviews Limits to Growth: The 30-Year Update

All of what you've said about these other problems is absolutely true. In fact there's a very large correlation between proper economic development and reduced fertility rates (as people become wealthier, they generally tend to have less children). And your point about farm subsidies and avoiding the "cheap food is always better" fallacy is also very true.

But that doesn't make population a red herring; in fact it's the crucial outcome that has to be considered in the context of the problem of how to create sustainable human growth. If we don't properly promote economic development, increased contraception, women's education, then the result will be unsustainable population growth. If we don't fix our water/waste/climate/food production/energy problems, then the population we already have and the population we're projected to have in the future--even in the best case scenarios--will be unsustainable.

What I think you're trying to say is that population itself is not the problem, but rather that it is the result of other problems, and that's why you believe it is a red herring (correct me if I'm wrong). But the truth is that it is both. This is a complicated issue, and as you've mentioned there are many serious problems related to population that we need to focus on. But even though Malthus was wrong about a lot of things, he was right on the fundamental point: there is a limit to how many people can exist sustainably on this planet. We don't know exactly what this limit is, and it will change as technology progresses. But like any limit, it is possible to exceed it in the short run, just as you can spend more money than you make for a short period of time. Continuing to exceed the Earth's population limits will be disastrous over the long run, and our best estimates show that that is the direction we are headed. Population is the most fundamental metric we have for showing our progress toward a sustainable future for human civilization. It's important to mention it.

BTW, for anyone interested in reading more about sustainability and growth, I highly recommend Limits to Growth. It is intelligently written with quite a bit of data, graphs, and reasoning, and is an excellent read.

https://www.amazon.com/Limits-Growth-Donella-H-Meadows/dp/193149858X

No growth means...no growth

e; I'm not saying don't save, just don't trust that money to continue to exist as life goes on. Convert to non-depreciating physical assets often.

I'd recommend the 30 year update.

I highly, highly recommend you read the book Limits to Growth.

Exponential growth in a finite world eventually hits hard limits. There's evidence to suggest we're reaching (or have already reached) those limits on this planet right about now.

Population growth is only possible when carrying capacity hasn't been reached or overshot. Carrying capacity of humans correlates to energy produced/consumed. We are running into energy limits.

Check this out: http://physics.ucsd.edu/do-the-math/2013/09/the-real-population-problem/
For more, try the book "Limits to Growth": http://www.amazon.com/Limits-Growth-The-30-Year-Update/dp/193149858X

definitely, but the cycle of infinite growth in capitalism seems to be coming to an end. it seems pretty unlikely that developing countries now will ever reach UK standards of living

if you'd like to read more here are some good books:

The End of Growth - Adapting to Our New Economic Reality

The Limits to Growth

Debt: The First 5000 Years

By the way, for those interested in reading the original Limits to Growth, the Donella Meadows Institute released it free online this past June:

http://www.donellameadows.org/the-limits-to-growth-now-available-to-read-online/

I'd also strongly recommend reading LTG: The 30 Year Update.

here you go, buddy

Sad to see that noone seems to have mentioned "Limits to growth" yet. The book came out 40 years ago, and has shaped a lot of the important (but still nascent) discussions on sustainable development (which is what Hedges is getting at here). It was updated 10 years ago, and has been elaborated on in countless books, a recent, good one is "2052: a global forecast for the next 40 years" by "Limits to Growth co-author Jørgen Randers, who collects both analysis and possible solutions from several other scholars. Randers: http://www.amazon.com/2052-Global-Forecast-Forty-Years/dp/1603584218 Limits to growth: http://www.amazon.com/Limits-Growth-Donella-H-Meadows/dp/193149858X/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1341618252&sr=1-1&keywords=limits+to+growth

Fair enough. I don't disregard the possibility of ending up as blabbering idiot who got sidelined by corporate propaganda. That's why I want to live at least 50 more years - so that I'm able to witness how this all plays out.

My sources are mostly those around systemics science - the Limits to Growth people, and others. Mainly, this book, the follow up, and then some up-to-date doom & gloom. It looks like science, the numbers seem to add up as predicted, and it has bearded wise old guys -- so it must be correct, right? :)

To clear things up, preparing for the collapse does not interfere with doing one's own thing. If it all collapses, one who hath prepared, lives. If it doesn't collapse, one at least gets a bit more self-reliant. Or a nice hobby.

So far I've gotten the impression that this subreddit may not be the best place to discuss the topic of potential collapse. And I don't mind. Still, to discuss it further (elsewhere, if needed be), that's what I'd like to do.

) Yet i have to ask: why corporate propaganda? Here I was, thinking that corporations want us as obedient, mindless, debt-trapped 9-5 cubicle slaves (IMHO, it's not about the money; it's about control where money plays the role of the carrot on a stick). So if the corporate talking heads were to say all was gonna bite the dust, wouldn't they be contradicting their own agenda/message? 'cause in my perspective, if it all actually does collapse, the wage slave is the one who gets hit the hardest, oblivious to their own impending annihilation. Meanwhile, the rich are at it, building luxurious underground shelters...

A big chunk of the human race will have died off by then. We're overpopulated, we hit peak oil production around 2005, and we've fucked up the climate. All the elite already know this. You should read Limits to Growth and 2052: A Global Forecast for the Next 40 Years.

The future ain't gonna be pretty.

https://www.amazon.com/Limits-Growth-Donella-H-Meadows/dp/193149858X

https://www.amazon.com/2052-Global-Forecast-Forty-Years/dp/1603584218/ref=pd_sim_14_2?ie=UTF8&dpID=41BwfGQIE-L&dpSrc=sims&preST=_AC_UL320_SR214%2C320_&refRID=4HF0T4T5RW4MPK30G09Y