We found 72 Reddit comments about Self-Made Man: One Woman's Year Disguised as a Man. Here are the top ones, ranked by their Reddit score.
What really surprises me is, well, how women view men. Whenever /r/askmen has threads asking the woman subscribers what they've learned, "that men have feelings/insecurities" is always a popular post. It's great to hear that they've learned that, but kind of worrisome to know that they had to learn it.
To quote from your /r/askwomen thread:
>That people are people, and men aren't these mysterious mystical terrifying powerful unfeeling creatures... they are human beings and not that different from me.
Which sounds beautiful until you realize that was the surprise. Here's what she actually thought about men:
>For a long time, I thought men were immune to that... that they didn't ever feel anything or care about people or women, and never were insecure or worried or anything like that.
I don't mean to pick on /r/AskWomen or that particular user. It's just one example of a common opinion about men. It also bothered me when reading about Self-Made Man. Norah Vincent says that she thought living as a man would be all about power, privilege, and freedom. So shocked was she that this wasn't the case she ended up in group therapy and ultimately cut the experiment short. Along with "men can feel sad too", she also had other revelations, such as "husbands love their wives". Thanks for the insights, Norah. I have always felt that the reason the author had so many difficulties and "revelations" during her experiance living as a man is that she went in with so much prejudice and so little empathy.
Apart from a few aspects of menstruation, nothing I read in /r/askwomen was a surprise. I certainly disagree with much of what is said there, to the point of being an ass, but disagreeing has never prevented me from seeing their perspective. The biggest surprise about women over the past year has been about how they view men.
I never realized how alien I was to women. It's scary and disheartening, and I'm hugely appreciative to the women in my life that treat me like a human being after discovering so many assumed I was an unfeeling robot with a sex-drive. At the same time, it's made me hugely distrustful and unwilling to open up to them, emotionally. And as such I end up perpetuating the myth.
> I think I get just as much rejection as a guy would get
Doubtful. In Self Made Man, a woman lives a year undercover as a man. It's a really enlightening story, but one of the biggest realizations she comes away with is the massive amount of rejection men face. It blew her mind doing speed dating and things like that, being perceived as a loser and/or predator before even having a chance to open her mouth.
If you have approached 50+ men in a row and been laughed at, scorned, or ignored by every single one of them, you'll start to understand what it's like for many guys.
I'm really good at approaching women now, but it's because I spent decades trying and failing. I remember the first time I tried to cold approach a woman in a bar (she wasn't even all that attractive, I just thought she looked nice enough for me to get over my anxiety):
I walk up to her and her two female friends, timing it so that I don't just interrupt what they are doing but find a natural break in their interaction. Then I moved up close to her and said "hi, I'm /u/autopornbot."
She looked at me like I had just shat on her new rug and said "So?" and looked at me with such disgust that I couldn't speak. I just turned and walked away.
I had friends who simultaneously encouraged me to keep trying, and made fun of me for not wanting to. So over the years I kept trying. And for years, the most I ever got from a woman was a polite brush off. And this was when I was young (18-22) and in great shape, pretty good looking - I was told by women that I knew as a part of my friend circle that I was good looking and dressed well and a lot of them liked me - I had girlfriends, but they were all women I had met through work or through friends, so we knew one another for some time first and I never had to come up and introduce myself or anything.
Most of the guys I know have had the same experience. Most guys rarely ever go talk to a woman they don't know, because the fear of being seen as a creep are too high. Nowadays, I know how to walk up to an attractive women and strike up a conversation, and a lot of times it actually goes well. Doing this around most men will absolutely blow their mind. Simply walking up to a woman and talking to her for a couple of minutes is so far out of the realm of experience for most guys, that they act as if I have magical powers.
But that ability only came after suffering through hundreds of failures.
You are right, though. Women rarely do this. Of course the few that do don't land every hot guy they approach. But women are far more gifted socially than men, so they are a lot better to begin with, and most men are so happy to have any woman acknowledge their existence that attraction or no, they are pretty receptive to at least talking - though admittedly there are exceptions.
But do keep it up. Just having a woman come up and talk to us can make our entire week, even if it goes nowhere at all. And it's a really difficult thing to do - especially in a bar or similar environments where there is pressure to act really cool. It's far easier in friendly, daytime events and casual environments.
Actually, no, your sample size is small, and thus, prone to aberration.
Many dudes have less than 10% success rate. I think an attractive, assertive woman should have higher than that, but whatevz. The thing you might not grok yet is that when you're putting yourself out there, you're gonna get shot down. Women typically don't understand how much rejection men get, and how often, and how much we have to overcome it. If you're curious about the dynamic reversal, check this book out:
Norah Vincent interview for anyone who's curious. Skip to 9:25 if it doesn't do so automatically. The interview was about her experiences while writing "Self Made Man".
Jealousy over assumed "privilege" isnt gender dysphoria, at least nothing I've ever seen (I work with the transgender community). I have never heard a trans person describe their gender dysphoria the way you have described your feelings. In some ways it would be easier to be a guy, in many ways it would be very difficult. I reccomend reading Self Made Man, it is a very powerful and informative book.
I think the best case study of this is the woman that pretended to be a man for a year to prove that men lived a privilege lifestyle. One of the things she was wildly unsuccessful at was dating. She said that she tried everything she thought that woman wanted to hear and it did not work. Link to book
> I understand a frustration with rigid, societal gender roles.
OK, but please understand that that's not what gender identity is about.
Suppose we tell you, "We're going to transform your body to female, and that's how everybody is going to see and relate to you for the rest of your life. But don't worry! We're not saying you have to be feminine! You can be as masculine as a woman as you like! But you have to be a woman."
I don't think you'd be cool with that. Possibly a few people have a lot of built-in gender flexibility and could roll with that punch. A lot more people think they could handle it, but in reality probably could not - Nora Vincent thought she could, for example, and almost lost her mind, even though her change was only outward/social and not bodily.
Hummm...não tenho ideia, mas vou chutar do meio do campo.
Tem o caso de uma mulher lésbica que se disfarçou como homem e viveu 18 meses assim. Ela tem uns insights bem interessantes e inclusive teve uns dates com mulheres. Para ela, em termos de relacionamentos e sedução, o papel do homem é MUITO mais difícil que o da mulher. O homem precisa se provar e há todo um tipo de pressão para seduzir, enquanto que para a mulher o papel é muito mais simples.
Eu concordo em boa parte com isso. Atravessar uma sala e abordar uma mulher que você acha extremamente sexy e que tem um sorriso bonito e tal é extremamente difícil e aprender isso é um caminho longo e repleto de frustração. Por isso, por exemplo, que você vê muito nerd masculino virjão, e muito menos mulher na mesma situação, e por isso que pipocam tópicos do tipo "como chegar na crush" partindo de homens, e não de mulheres.
Ter sexo com frequência é muito mais fácil pra mulher, no final das contas, e acredito que um cara que é bi mas que é socialmente morto pode acabar "migrando" pro outro lado, talvez por ser mais fácil e se sentir mais realizado sendo desejado, seja da forma que for.
Como eu falei no início, é um chute do meio do campo e nada impede que eu tenha isolado a bola do estádio.
One book that may be helpful for answering your questions is Self Made Man. The author spent about 18 months living as a man, in some all-male spaces (the monastery seems cool, but I'm positive that if I went to one of those Iron John camps, I'd be murdered). In the end, she had a nervous breakdown. Along the way she learned totally positively that she is neither a transvestite nor transgender. If Norah (the author) ever comes to Denver, I'd like to buy her a drink.
Two previous links on this subject that I've saved are:
I'm certain that there are others. But I think these anecdotes from people who have been both genders, and the jarring differences that they experience might be something you ought to read. Things like:
> I wouldn't call it the better gender, though things are much easier in a lot of respects. I was recently promoted to electronics at Target. My boss basically said, "you're a guy so you must know a lot about electronics". My female coworker, who obviously knows more about electronics, had to fight tooth and nail to get the same position. She and our boss still but heads occasionally because he treats her as if she is incompetent. I think that's it really. When you're a guy, for the most part you are assumed competent until proven otherwise. With women, the opposite happens. You have to prove yourself competent before you're offered anything.
Another good book that I think you might be interested in is Whipping Girl.
Yeah, I had a couple female friends tell me that, too. :/
Being trans is difficult for others to understand. Hell, I'm trans and it took me over 30 years! :)
Self-Made Man has an interesting take on this. It's by a cis female journalist who pretended to be male for a year and ended up finding it far more disturbing than she'd thought.
The book was Self Made Man. Here is the video that was posted as part of the book launch press.
> I really hope this doesn't come off as transphobic, but I just don't understand how you can "feel" like you're the wrong gender, because it doesn't really make sense to me to "feel" like a gender at all?
doesn't sound transphobic. it sounds exactly like i would expect a cis woman to feel. would it blow your mind to know that i don't know what it feels like to have sex and gender line up?
> I was born a woman, I identify as a woman, I present as a woman, etc.
wait, what? but i thought you didn't know what gender feels like? sounds like you do know what gender feels like. you just didn't realize it. and thats normal for cis people.
> Something that gets brought up with trying to get people to understand what being trans is like is "imagine if you woke up tomorrow as the opposite sex, wouldn't you be desperate to get back?" and my response is pretty indifferent. Like it'd be a logistical adjustment, but I think I'd be totally fine with it.
well, it doesn't work that way but it's really hard to give cis people an example. if you'd be fine with it, why not get a phalloplasty? start testosterone? schedule an appointment with an endocrinologist to discuss starting HRT? or a plastic surgeon to discuss getting surgery? see how it makes you feel? its one thing to just think that you'd be cool with it, that it'd be some "logistical adjustment" because it doesn't fundamentally work that way. its just a fantasy with no possibility of happening. but, cis gender people have been forced to take HRT in the past before with disastrous results. a prime example is alan turing. he was forced to take HRT and was driven to depression and eventually suicide (although there is some speculation about that).
another good example is a book called Self-Made Man: One Woman's Year Disguised as a Man by Norah Vincent. Norah just cross dressed for a year and impersonated a man, but had to quit when the stress of being a different gender nearly drove her to suicide.
the point being that transitioning is not something people are indifferent too. if you are trans, its to alleviate dysphoria and likely save your life. for cis gender people, transitioning causes a lot of distress.
> It just seems like gender is such a social construct, that what does "feeling" like one even mean? Liking pink, or wearing makeup, or having long hair, being attracted to men or any other female stereotypes aren't exclusive to women, and the same could be said for male stereotypes and men.
gender is not a social construct. it is very much a part of biology. brains are sexually dimorphic with a trans woman's brain being more similar to a cis woman's brain, and a trans man's brain more similar to a cis man's brains. with hrt, the brain is continually remodeled. it is suspected that the difference between the sexed body and the gendered brain is what causes dysphoria. someone will likely provide a nice copy-n-paste with links to research papers that help to establish this. as a corollary to this, is gender was socially constructed, then trans people could not exist.
i can tell you that hrt has positively affected my life in numerous ways. if gender was a social construct, this wouldn't happen.
Her book is definitely going on the to-read pile.
Although not the same as actually transitioning, I found Norah Vincent's book Self Made Man a really interesting and insightful read on this topic. She doesn't have a full epiphany but does have some startling realisations that make it well worth reading.
It sounds like you would love this book. It's the memoir of Norah Vincent, a 5'11" androgynous lesbian who spent a year living as a man to find out what it was like. Fantastic book.
>Vincent's first experiment in cross-dressing came on a dare from an acquaintance who was a drag king. When she experienced the intoxicating invisibility and safety that came from wearing the disguise, she wanted to learn more. For 18 months, she disguised herself as a man, renamed herself Ned, joined a men's bowling league, visited strip bars, and dated women. Along the way, she found that the freedom and privileges enjoyed by men were counterbalanced by a constant testing and severe limits on emotions. She also found women to be distrustful, ever ready to criticize men for being emotionally distant yet clearly preferring men who met stereotypical images of strength and virility. Vincent is frank about her experiences--the hard business of sexual transactions devoid of emotions, the easy bonding between men, fear of sexual attraction among men, and, ultimately, the explosion of her own notions of sex roles. She also explores the guilt she feels about her deception. Writing from the perspective of a gay woman who had a view of the male world that women don't get to see, Vincent finds unexpected complexities in the men she meets and in herself as well.
(Yes, this really happened. It's non-fiction)
Self-Made Man: One Woman's Year Disguised as a Man is near the top of my reading list. It's about a woman who disguises herself as a man for a year and tries to merge into "male" society. The reviews sound promising and I'm really interested in it.
I've been told it's more like this: http://www.amazon.com/Self-Made-Man-Womans-Year-Disguised/dp/0143038702
Awhile ago there was a woman who dressed up as a man - IIRC it was for like a magazine article or a book or something. But she documented her life as a woman, for a period of time - a week or a month or whatever it was. Then dressed up as a man and did the exact same things over again. Went to the same places, did the same things, etc. She even dated as both genders. She concluded that there are good things and bad about both genders so largely it ends up pretty even. i.e. - women had to put up with subtle (and sometimes not so subtle) harassment, but men couldn't get any special treatment like talking your way out of a speeding or parking ticket. The one conclusion that stuck with me (and the reason I actually remember any of this) was that dating in particular was harder as a man. As a woman she could dress up a little, go to a bar, and a couple of guys would buy her drinks and virtually all of them would ultimately ask her out. But when she did the same thing as a man she found it was a lot harder to get positive responses from women. She could dress up as a good-looking man, but just approaching and talking to women and buying drinks wouldn't guarantee her a date. Then, once on the date, a lot of pressure is on the guy to be a gentleman but not too old-fashioned or overly formal. Do you open her car door? Hold out a hand to help her out of the car? Open the restaurant door? Let her go in first? Help her off with her coat? Pull out her chair at the restaurant? Stand up when she gets up to powder her nose? Order a bottle of wine for the table? Order dessert? Pay for the whole check or take her up on splitting it? Help her put her coat back on? Hold the door again? Open her car door? Help her into the car? etc... And none of that even went on to the things that are traditionally seen as the man's responsibility to initiate, like the first kiss, sex, etc.
(sorry I searched for the source but couldn't locate...guess reddit will have to take my word for it)
tl;dr => There was an author/reporter who did this and found that in life male/female kinda balances out, but in dating men have it harder.
edit: found it - http://www.amazon.com/Self-Made-Man-Womans-Year-Disguised/dp/0143038702 - it was a book and she was "undercover" for 18 months
if you ladies think you have it so hard you're more than welcome to trade places.
here's a couple ladies that tried it out.
first woman said it felt suffocating, it was the first time she'd ever felt suppressed, and she never wanted to do it again. the second one needed to be institutionalized.
Isn't that the premise of this book?
> When I see bizarre, broad generalizations being made about women
When you run into something like this you should always try to think about what the other person's life experience might be that leads them to their beliefs.
For example: Let's say you meet a man, or a teen, who tells you "women don't like sex". A man who thinks this may have a life experience of growing up both unattractive and being surrounded by male friends & family who are also unattractive. In his life experience, as well as those he is close to, women will express little to no sexual desire in front of them. Sometimes women will do this as a self-defense measure against catching the attention of men they are not interested in. Other times this man's life experience will be constrained because he's never been around when women meet attractive men. This can happen because we all live in our own social bubbles and often don't pay much attention to others outside of our bubbles.
An unattractive man who lives his life around other unattractive men may spend his lifetime never seeing the "I want you" look in a woman's eyes. If he never sees that look, weather at himself or those around him, he may not believe it exists.
Back in the days we all lived in small towns you may have an entire town of unattractive men who have never seen women expressing sexual desire. With our more mobile country and social media it's becoming harder to be so sheltered, but it still seems to happen from time to time. I think it probably is more common among teens because they tend to be more self-focused.
>If someone, especially a women, wants to give you a little nudge in a different direction it might actually, maybe be worth considering.
If she's a lesbian who's been in relationships, than sure. But if you've never had the experience of seducing another woman then any advice is dubious at best. Most people lack a good amount of self-awareness so to believe that women know what they want or what they respond to is just incorrect. Even the NYT knows that women don't know themselves:
>All was different with the women. No matter what their self-proclaimed sexual orientation, they showed, on the whole, strong and swift genital arousal when the screen offered men with men, women with women and women with men. They responded objectively much more to the exercising woman than to the strolling man, and their blood flow rose quickly — and markedly, though to a lesser degree than during all the human scenes except the footage of the ambling, strapping man — as they watched the apes. And with the women, especially the straight women, mind and genitals seemed scarcely to belong to the same person. The readings from the plethysmograph and the keypad weren’t in much accord. During shots of lesbian coupling, heterosexual women reported less excitement than their vaginas indicated; watching gay men, they reported a great deal less; and viewing heterosexual intercourse, they reported much more. Among the lesbian volunteers, the two readings converged when women appeared on the screen. But when the films featured only men, the lesbians reported less engagement than the plethysmograph recorded. Whether straight or gay, the women claimed almost no arousal whatsoever while staring at the bonobos.
One woman learned the difference between men & women when she went undercover as man and she wrote a great book about her experience. Here is an interview with her.
Or the reverse.
Good on you for admitting you were wrong. That takes guts.
By the way, I'm assuming you're a woman? If so, I recommend the book "Self Made Man" by Norah Vincent. She spent 18 months "undercover", living as a man. It doesn't deal with male rape, but it does reveal a lot of misunderstanding by women (or at least the author) of what it's like to be a man.
Here's another perspective, also published 2006:
LOL, they basically call her a misogynist and out the women she dated as mentally ill. Also the nice wall of text saying her experiment sucks because she went into it without a strong bias favoring feminism.
I have a ftm tg friend...He does take hormones,but when he first started,he simply dressed as a man...
People see what they want to see and if you dress like a man,get short hair, a masculine name,they will see you as a man.
My friend also had some bottom and top surgery. Those are options as well.
This book,Self Made Man, depicts a lesbian who spent a year as a man..it's an interesting read:
A few years back, I read Norah Vincent's Self-Made Man, and found it an interesting read.
(I will admit it also simply felt good to read someone acknowledging the difficulties that men face in daily life.)
I was genuinely surprised later on to find out how anti-trans-anybody Vincent turns out to be. I would have thought her experiences would have opened her up to the understanding of how important identity is to people, but some of the things she has apparently said come across as downright scornful of the trans community.
I'm at a loss for understanding where this hateful impetus comes from, and was wondering if you had any comments of your own to add, recommended reading, or the like.
If you don't, that's ok. I've been enjoying your answers to the other questions in this thread. Thanks for taking the time to do so!
These are people whose rights are protected under our shield. If they are, were, or will be identifying as men they need to be taken care of. For transmen in particular it can be a shock to learn about the burdens of expected male gender roles in western society.
From what I know there's a certain brand of radical feminism that demonizes the trans community (some crap about transwomen trying to steal victimhood from women and transmen betraying their sisters by trying to claim male privilege).
Self-Made Man: One Woman's Year Disguised as a Man, by Norah Vincent. Amazon link.
Have you read Self-Made Man? I'm reading through it now, and although I feel there are some feminist biases that the author has trouble seeing past, she does make some interesting insights and comparisons with regards to how the world expects men vs. women to act/think.
> I just watched The Red Pill and honestly
Interesting. Will try to watch it.
Also stumbled on this book on the link you gave: https://www.amazon.com/Self-Made-Man-Womans-Year-Disguised/dp/0143038702
Its about a woman who disguised herself as a man and was surprised on when she found out that men also have problems. Will queue this up on my reading list.
heres her book
heres a short news story on her writing her book and her experiences
Have there been any studies done on this or are you just talking mostly about trans feminists? I'd be much more interested in the experiences of trans people who don't have a vested interest in a certain gender narrative.
There was an article on some major news sites about a lesbian woman who dressed up, acted like, and pretended to be a man for a year and a half to see how men really act and how other people treat men. I think she was even a self described feminist. She became good friends with a group of guys she joined a bowling league with. She was shocked by how much more badly she was often treated as a man and realized how many problems she faced living as a man. Ultimately she said it made her her realize that she was actually privileged to live as a woman.
Edit: here's the book she wrote about it
And here's the ABC article:
Is this it? Is it any good?
Self-Made Man: One Woman's Year Disguised as a Man By Norah Vincent which you can buy here in case anyone is looking for it.
Read "Self Made Man" by Norah Vincent. She takes acting classes and disguises herself as a man for a year to to look at the world of masculinity and write a book about it, but one chapter in particular will really speak to you. I think its the second or third chapter and she joins an MLM business and she writes about the significant toll it takes on the men who work there and the dirty psychological tactics the management and company employ to keep people working. Some of what you wrote makes me think of that.
The book isn't sexist, she takes an unabashed look and admits to her own biases and where she was wrong. The other chapters aren't related to anything in this sub, but the chapter I mentioned (I Think it's chapter 6: Work) is very much related to the frustrations you're feeling.
Sounds like you had a bad date :-/ Sorry.
Yes, the dating world can be very cold to men that aren't attractive. It's not something that's discussed much, because it's hammered into our heads as kids that all you need to get the girl is a sense of humor, maybe a job, some confidence and a decent sense of style. But women can be every bit as superficial, unfortunately.
I wouldn't defend all the horrible shit that men have done to women throughout history, but this book should be enlightening reading for many women these days:
All that said, though - if you realize you're a 2 or 3 out of 10, are you taking steps to improve? Have you been working out? Perhaps you need to dress better? Get on a diet?
> Isn't that the complaint with thots and the like? Basically if all you bring to the table is sex and nothing else why spend money and time on you?
Actually, if you go back to the 1950s, the first sociological studies were coming out and revealed that a surprisingly large number of prostitutes' clients actually did not hire her to f--k: instead they spent the whole visit talking.
At the time, this was interpreted as, "Men are incapable of finding anyone to talk to." Note the self-contradictory nature of this interpretation.
Looking back, I think we can fairly re-interpret that data as, "Female sympathy for a male instead of another female is impaired, and they are intolerant of weakness in a male."
This ties into something lesbian journo Norah Vincent noticed in Self-Made Man: One Woman's Year Disguised as a Man. After the experiment was over, she was listening to a man in a bar and found herself hanging on every word, not because it was important to her, but because she now knew how important it was for him to be able to open up to a woman who would actually listen:
> Ditto for the stereotype about men monopolizing conversations. Like Sasha, many of my dates - even the more passive ones - did most of the talking. I listened to them talk literally for hours about the most minute, mind-numbing details of their personal lives; men they were still in love with, men they had divorced, roommates and co-workers they hated, childhoods they were loath to remember yet somehow found the energy to recount ad nauseam. Listening to them was like undergoing a slow frontal lobotomy. I sat there stunned by the social ineptitude of people to whom it never seemed to occur that no one, much less a first date, would have any interest in enduring this ordeal.
Most often, it's very difficult to treat a girl as one of the guys. So ask yourself, is she part of the rule or the exception. She'll be part of the rule most likely. This lady tried being one of the guys and ended in a mental institution.
Well I don't know about a week.....But here's a story of a lesbian woman who dressed up and pretended to be a man for a whole year. She also wrote a book about it.
If you guys haven't read her book, I highly recommend it. There's a lot of little insights that you can't quite cram into a page-length Reddit post.
It might not be what you're asking about, but I think it's related: There's a number of folks who are incel/ForeverAlone/etc. who cite Norah Vincent's book, "Self Made Man" as evidence that dating really is that much tougher for men than women.
Well, Norah Vincent and Alan Turing provide some insight into things.
Norah wasn't even living full time or taking HRT and she had a nervous breakdown as a result of the experience; her next book was about her experience as a mental patient when she was hospitalized...
Turing was forced to take HRT as a 'cure' for homosexuality and committed suicide.
It's all pretty circumstantial and there's not many data points, but you can probably just look at cis people's reactions to the idea of taking HRT and 'suffering' the effects of that to get an idea of how well it sits with people.
[edit: corrected spelling of Nora to Norah.]
I really enjoyed this one: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0143038702
Here is the mobile version of your link
If you're interested in having a serious conversation. I'm willing to talk.
Negging and the number system are fine. I have no problems with them. First: The number system [this is the whole attractive 1-10 scale]. Its not an evaluation of how much the person is worth. Its how attractive are they to you. Women do this and men do this. They have different reasons for doing this. Claiming that it's a crappy thing to do is disingenuous to yourself and who you talk to. If you don't use a number system, you still compare others. The other benefit [and why pua uses] to the number system is that its easy to describe to others without going into the appearence details or personal identifiers of the girls online. As the community, we're not interested in identifying the person. We're interested in the interaction.
Negging: Its teasing. It's not a compliment and it's not an insult.
From a lot of feminists that I"ve read their arguments, their opposition tends to stem from extreme situations or the lack of social IQ. When you go for a kiss with a girl, both parties don't confirm that the action that is going to take place is going to happen.
In a perfect world:
It would be easy to get to know the opposite sex and come to a mutual agreement about what each other want. However, games are played. Girls, in general, are playing a game that the guys aren't aware of. However, guys are thrown into the game and are expected to play well. I am of the opinion of lets stop playing games and have a bit of fun together. Everyone could be direct and clear about what they want and don't want. However this is not the case in the real world.
When PUA information is sold, it is typically sold by marketers. They're going for what appeals to a base desire of the demographic (guys), sex. Guys want to be able to communicate what they want without the negative reprocutions that have been getting worse. [There are women out there that want to ruin a guy's reputation for hitting on her or just wanting sex. Thats screwed up, but again... some women] I think there is a lot of bad marketing out there. I'm referring to the types "have sex with any girl you want." A lot of the fear about the pickup guides/classes/bootcamps comes from the same fears about hypnotism... its "forcing people to do what they don't want to do." You cannot make any girl, without the threat of violence or coercion, have sex with you if they don't want to. Where am I going with this: Seduction/game requires that you learn how to be your best self, be aware of the situation, and to become very approachable to the opposite sex. From the perspective of strategy, coercion and violence is a very bad idea and it would limit your opportunities. Seduction/game: We want to meet agreeable people, and to have fun with others.
How men are treated
I think something that should be address is how men are treated in modern society. As a man, you're not given a lot of opportunity to be social, or to be apart of a community unless you really work for it. Norah Vincennt might be able to explain this point a bit better: http://www.amazon.com/Self-Made-Man-Womans-Year-Disguised/dp/0143038702
[However, after the experiement she found her self to be in such a bad state that it required a stay in a mental insitution for depression.] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norah_Vincent)
Are you talking about this book:
I wouldn't call that picture feminine per se. But whatever.
I think it's great! It's awesome to see the world through different eyes, even if it's still somewhat anonymous. People treat you differently.
If you're interested in reading more into this sort of perspective-shifting, Self-Made Man is a great book.
Self made man by Norah Vincent
this post's is literally a feminist doing exactly what you want.
I mean seriously "a young feminists compassionate view of men" is the title. this isn't even something that is all that rare.
oh and you might enjoy this book
You could always walk a mile in the other man's shoes.
Consider reading this compelling book Self-Made Man by Norah Vincent.
Highly recommend her book Self Made Man
Instead of a post, some free publicity for a book that basically answers that question
This might provide insight, since I've only ever been on one side of the fence.
Self-Made Man: My Year Disguised as a Man is a book by Norah Vincent
Nora Vincent did it for a year and published a book about it:
Is that what you're referring to?
There's a whole book on this very phenomenon called Self-Made Man which is very interesting!
Have you ever read this book? I did. You might find it interesting.
Either way it sounds like it has as many downsides as upsides to be listed as a privilege. I wont get judged as much for being a sexual being..true
The clothes I wear wont matter one iota...true
No one gives a flying shit about me... also true
> It was the first time in my life I've ever been, for the most part, ignored. And it was great
You say this from the context of it being a choice. You may have a different perspective if this social alienation was not a choice. This woman author tried presenting as a man for a year and had to be checked into a mental hospital afterwards. She absolutely hated the dating dynamic the most. The way other women would just outright dismiss her as though she were dirt. She thought..like you did... that nobody noticing you/caring about you would be super fantastic fun time. She had a different experience and to my knowledge hasnt cared to repeat it.
Yeah being ignored is great when you want to be ignored...no question. But thats not really the whole issue is it? What about all those times when you want to connect with another human being?
Its just another bullet point on this list but it spells out the overarching problem. Its clearly made by a woman looking at men and thinking these things are all awesome with no real empathic depth, thought, or experience. I mean this kind of crap really exposes the gender war for the senseless middle-school shit that it is.
Norah Vincent's book Self Made Man is high up on my reading list. In an interview, she said that she "ran smack up against the different between male and female sexuality ... Female is mental. It's up here [in the brain]." At 11:18, Norah "was surprised that many women had no interest in a soft, vulnerable man". "My prejudice", she said, "was that the ideal man was a woman in a man's body, and I learned 'no, that's really not it'. There are a lot of women out there who really want a manly man."
>Ultimately, Ned told most of his [female] dates that he was Norah. Many of the women reacted angrily, but usually just for a little while. Some women wanted to continue the relationship. [Heterosexual women] remained interested in pursuing something further. That's what I'm saying: [the difference] is all up here [in the brain] because they said "we connected, and there's something. I really like you, and I don't care." How many guys would do that? That's the different between male and female sexuality right there.
Here's a book by a woman that lived as a man for a year.
>Self-Made Man: One Woman's Year Disguised as a Man
After the experiment, she was institutionalized for depression, and stated that she never felt so glad for being a woman.
>"I really like being a woman. ... I like it more now because I think it's more of a privilege."
>"Living as a man taught me a lot about the things I most enjoyed about being a woman in the world, things I consider to be the privileges of womanhood—the emotional freedom, the range of expression, the sexual and social power we can exercise over men. Returning to my life as a woman was about reclaiming those privileges and taking greater satisfaction in them".
You should read Tripping the Prom Queen and Self-Made Man, gave me a totally different perspective on how women treat each other, and how women are treated by men.
The only one I would add to this is Self-Made Man by Norah Vincent. http://www.amazon.com/Self-Made-Man-Womans-Year-Disguised/dp/0143038702/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&amp;qid=1404384953&amp;sr=8-1&amp;keywords=self-made+man I felt it did a good job showing how men feel and interact as well as dispelling a lot of false ideas she had going into it about men and how their world is.
Finding women with similar net worth is ridiculously restrictive. And as any male already knows, the odds are already stacked against us, from a dating perspective, as a woman who spent a year dressed as a man will attest.
If you are truly curious why not read this book? https://www.amazon.com/Self-Made-Man-Womans-Year-Disguised/dp/0143038702
Yep women are totally attracted to feminine men, to men that are open with their emotions, that are not stoic, that have jobs like being a teacher.
With my fraternity brothers, we don't care if one of us cries, we give him support, we talk about our feelings and our problems. But guess who finds that behavior unattractive, guess who looks upon a crying man emotional man with disdain.
to quote an anonymous, "My wife and daughters would rather see me die on my horse than fall off of it."
The only reason my friends and I do 1/2 the shit we do is because women find it attractive, it was up to me i would get a history and education degree and teach highschool history, but guess who doesn't get laid. So I'm going economics and finance, LOOK at the JOBS men go into.
Hard STRESSFUL >>>high paying<<< take a gander why. Most of my friends dislike their majors but guess what's sexier an account executive or a teacher TO THE MAJORITY OF ATTRACTIVE WOMEN.
I women just starting going buckwild after a teacher, GUESS WHAT HAPPENS, more men go into teaching. If the education major pulled more than the econ major frat star football player then guess what ---> more men will go into education.
> has said that it happens in 100% of games
What I'm saying is that, out of thousands of games, I've seen it happen so near-zero that I'm not saying it "isn't 100%" -- it isn't even 50%. It isn't even 10%. It isn't even 1%. Unless the woman starts being toxic, I don't see her getting harrassed any more than a man in the same exact situation.
> and you are lucky to be a male–the expected default–in your hobby.
I've seen enough women carried that I disagree. I've seen enough diamond-level women streaming successfully while you need to be a GM+ level male streaming successfully that I disagree. I've read [Self-Made Man] (https://www.amazon.com/Self-Made-Man-Womans-Year-Disguised/dp/0143038702) enough to know that the perceived advantages of Tumblr Patriarchy are only perceived.
If you are being harrassed for "being normal" (which I assume you mean "being toxic" since toxicity is pretty normal), then you may want to try no longer being toxic.
I'd wager that if I queued with you and we played 10 games and you talked in every single game, saying "Hey guys" and making reasonable callouts, that you would not get a "fucking bitch" just for talking in even a single game. Guarantee it. I'd put money down on it. I suspect about 40-60% of the games someone will go "OMG A GIRL" and start beta-orbitting, but that's it.
But I'm also willing to wager that you'll be too busy constantly making passive-aggressive suggestions to others explaining to them how to play their character in order to keep the games untainted.
As they say, if everyone smells like shit, maybe you should check your shoes.
> caused by systematic patriarchy
Pardon me for saying this but this is 100% pure bullshit. You can't even define what patriarchy is. It's just a feminist code word for 'men'. Patriarchy - in the original sense of the word - means fathers ruling their families. Nowadays fathers don't rule anything, in fact mothers have tons more rights while fathers only have responsibilities. Feminists started using the word 'patriarchy' referring to an invisible male conspiracy oppressing women, which is one of the silliest notions of all time. So, saying "men have problems too but patriarchy" is just a lame excuse to sweep them and their problems under the rug as something that is caused by their own sillyness. I have never seen a feminist actually addressing a male-specific problem in a constructive and helpful way. Yay for equality!
> Regarding the M&M ad specifically. It was made in response to the whole "Not All Men" stuff following the killings of women in California, I believe.
Regardless of what it responds to it's pure hatred. Try saying that 10% of blacks, jews or women are "poisonous" and see what'll happen. But feminists demonizing men is a-okay...
> The M&M Ad is trying to bring attention to the fact that yeah, not all men are sexist assholes, but some are. The same goes with feminists. Not all are sexist assholes, but some are.
This logic means that if you take offence at people saying feminists hate men you should also take offence at the M&M bullshit. Or is it ok if I start an international campaign about how 10% of feminists are poisonous and people are justified in hating all feminists because it is impossible to know who belongs to the 10%?
> this man who has grown up in Egypt, went undercover as a woman and discovered the unrelenting harassment that women endure in his country
This women lived as a man for 18 months and had a serious mental breakdown because of it. IN THE EFFIN' UNITED STATES. Read about it, it's educational.
> Catcalling is uncomfortable, and scary for the person it is happening to.
And you know this because you know every woman on the planet personally. Oh wait, no, you contradict yourself in the very next sentence:
> For some women, they don't care, or they take pride in being catcalled
How is a man supposed to know how'll you react until trying? If it's uncomfortable for you just don't answer, instead of trying to demonize men (and other women who have no problem with it).
> an example of society objectifying people being catcalled
Objectification is bullshit. A man who finds a woman beautiful does not view her as an object. It takes twisted feminist logic to say that the more people find you desirable the more oppressed you are. But of course if you happen to be overweight and men don't find you desirable it's also men's fault, so, damned if you do and damned if you don't. Feminism in a nutshell.
> I've never met or come across a radical, man-hating feminist unless I've specifically gone out to seek it
Turn on the TV or open a newspaper and you're bound to see one in less than a minute. Anyone who keeps on spewing factually disproven anti-male lies is a radical. Just to name a few: Hillary Clinton, Harriet Harman, Julia Gillard, Jessica Valenti, Amanda Marcotte. They all feed people misandrist bullshit about the non-existent wage gap, the invisible patriarchy, rape culture and whatnot. Tell me what any of that has to do with equal rights...
If you want to know what it's like to be a man from a female perspective read this: http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0143038702?pc_redir=1408373321&amp;robot_redir=1
If you want to pretend like you care, continue arguing for arguing.