Reddit Reddit reviews The Invisible Hook: The Hidden Economics of Pirates

We found 26 Reddit comments about The Invisible Hook: The Hidden Economics of Pirates. Here are the top ones, ranked by their Reddit score.

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The Invisible Hook: The Hidden Economics of Pirates
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26 Reddit comments about The Invisible Hook: The Hidden Economics of Pirates:

u/barkevious2 · 27 pointsr/philosophy

> The world probably won't go crazy, but there will be some who will act against other.

Nozick's Anarchy State and Utopia draws on (and critiques) the work of so-called "anarcho-capitalists" (also called "market anarchists" and "individualist anarchists") like Lysander Spooner, Benjamin Tucker, Murray Rothbard, and David Friedman.

Market anarchists argue that the problem you identify - the possibility of widespread violence that could accompany the "power vacuum" of a stateless society - is solved by social coordination and market forces.

Put briefly (and oversimplified): In a stateless society, people would fear for their safety, and they would form protective associations that provide the police, military, and judicial functions normally handled by states. The only difference is that these "protective associations" would work on the basis of individual consent, like a club. You would not be "born into" membership in a protective association as you are today born into citizenship in a state. You could enter it and leave it on mutually agreeable terms. Associations might charge members for protection or require that members protect (and not assault) each other. Surely, they argue, the market for protection from the threat of violence would be as strong as the markets for other essentials like food and shelter.

If this seems risky, the market anarchists argue, that's only because you've trained yourself not to notice the considerable risks that come with state monopolies on the exercise of power. States oppress, abuse, invade, steal, and murder all the time. It's just that their doing so is the norm, and we've either been sheltered from it because of our extraordinary luck, or we've ceased to notice it. This is an example of the "nirvana fallacy" according to the anarchists, because we are comparing an ideal state (Norway) to a hellish caricature of anarchism (Somalia).

There are several common critiques of this argument. Here are a few:

  1. Nozick himself argues that the market anarchist's approach is unsustainable. Markets for protective associations, he argues, have an inherent tendency to "collapse" into monopolies, because nobody has any incentive to be a member of the second-best protective association in their region. The strongest protective association eventually absorbs all of its competitors, and it becomes an "ultra-minimal state." The argument gets a little bit more complicated at this point, but the upshot according to Nozick is that ultra-minimal states (monopolistic protective associations) have the moral obligation to become full-fledged "minimal states" which require all of the people in a region to sign up, contribute taxes, and participate in mutual policing and protection schemes.

  2. Economists like Milton Friedman (father of David, mentioned above) argue that this sort of anarchism is unsustainable simply because the goods in the market for protection are "public goods." Public goods are non-excludable and non-rivalrous. That means that you can't easily stop somebody from enjoying a public good without killing them, and the use of a public good by one person doesn't keep anybody else from using it simultaneously. Police protection, for example, is a public good because my enjoyment of police protection doesn't stop you from simultaneously enjoying police protection, and everybody in the jurisdiction of a police force benefits from that police force's presence whether or not they pay to support that force. Friedman and others have argued that full-fledged states are the only entities capable of providing for public goods. Markets can't do it - in fact, when markets try to do it, what occurs is one example of a phenomenon called "market failure." Other examples of public goods include atmospheric oxygen, knowledge, military protection, justice, and flood levees.

  3. There's an historical argument against market anarchism, and this seems the most similar to your concerns. At least one of two things holds true of every society that has come close to market anarchism: That society has been a miserable place to live, and/or that society eventually evolved into a stable nation-state. Consider this an attempt to turn the "nirvana fallacy" argument against the anarchists: The anarchists are imagining an ideal anarchic state instead of the more likely and less appealing Somalian outcome. Market anarchists claim that this response is specious. They argue that market anarchism has worked in certain contexts, as with 18th-century pirate codes and Medieval Iceland. They also argue that the misery of many stateless societies would only be made worse by the presence of a state. Finally, they claim that it is not a good argument against a political ideal to say that that political ideal has never been tried in its purest form.
u/Cheezus_Geist · 17 pointsr/todayilearned

I learned this from a talk by Peter Leeson on his book The Invisible Hook, I think this one.[1:02:47] The bits about pirate democracy begins ~10:30

The Book

Very apropos for talk like a pirate day, I suppose. :D

u/unnamed_economist · 10 pointsr/slatestarcodex

Modeling incentives lies at the heart of almost all of modern economics. Not just game theory - even modern macroeconomics is really about modeling how agents respond to things.

If you are looking for pleasure reading, I wouldn't suggest macroeconomics.

Personally, I liked texts that examine interesting institutions or behaviors through the lens of incentives. Here are a few suggestions:

  1. evolution of legal systems and the incentives they produce. http://www.daviddfriedman.com/Academic/Course_Pages/legal_systems_very_different_12/LegalSystemsDraft.html

  2. economics of piracy.
    https://www.amazon.com/Invisible-Hook-Hidden-Economics-Pirates/dp/0691150095

  3. almost anything by Becker. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Becker
u/SpamFilterHatesMe · 7 pointsr/serbia

> Ako citate, koji zanr vam je omiljeni?

Non-fiction i naučna fantastika.

> Koji vam je omiljeni pisac,

Bill Bryson

Pa onda tu negde dalje u top10 je Andrić, Efraim Kišon, Asimov, Klark, Orvel.. ono, standardna lista dobrih pisaca, ne hipsterišem s knjigama, ovi ljudi su velikani i to sa dobrim razlogom)

> omiljena knjiga?

Madrfaking Hari Poter serijal. Bez zajebancije. Od svega što sam pročitao u životu, a dosta sam pročitao i dalje se ložim na ceo Hari Poter univerzum.

> Kako nabavljate knjige? Da li ih kupujete, skidate sa interneta, uzimate iz biblioteke ili nesto cetvrto?

Sve ih skidam s neta, na engleskom uglavnom. Imam Kindle pa mi stvarno odgovara na ovaj način. Ponekad nabavim u papirnom izdanju.

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Trenutno čitam: The Invisible Hook (The Hidden Economics of Pirates) - Peter Leeson

Ekonomista napisao knjigu o piratima.

Jebote, ljudi su ladno u 17veku imali funkcionalnu demokratiju na palubama svojih brodova negde u pizdi materini na okeanu, mnogo pre nego što su je imale i uopšte "izmislile" države sa svojom problematičnom monarhijom. I to ne onu zastarelu Atinsku demokratiju iz antičke Grčke, već pravu koju je imalo svakog smisla uvoditi i imati. I sve to provučeno kroz ekonomiju. Skroz zanimljivo i zabavno štivo.

Ovaj komentar me navukao, a ja se čak uopšte i ne ložim na pirate. http://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/1wdd0n/im_a_typical_sailor_in_the_caribbean_around_the/cf116kk

u/foofie · 6 pointsr/Libertarian

This book discuss how it worked out for Pirates.

u/fieryseraph · 5 pointsr/Libertarian

>Show me an example of a system like this working. I dare you.

https://www.amazon.com/Anarchy-Unbound-Self-Governance-Cambridge-Economics/dp/1107629705

https://www.amazon.com/Private-Governance-Creating-Economic-Social/dp/0199365164

https://www.amazon.com/Invisible-Hook-Hidden-Economics-Pirates/dp/0691150095

https://www.amazon.com/Not-So-Wild-West-Economics/dp/0804748543

https://www.amazon.com/Machinery-Freedom-Guide-Radical-Capitalism/dp/1507785607

https://www.amazon.com/Art-Not-Being-Governed-Anarchist/dp/0300169175

There is also a whole ton of economic literature out there about groups who resolve disputes using game theory, or long term contracts, things like that, instead of relying on a central governing body with a strong threat of violence.

u/noahpoah · 5 pointsr/suggestmeabook

Not exactly what you're asking for, I don't think, but The Invisible Hook is a fascinating non-fiction book about various aspects of pirate politics and economics.

u/Clumpy · 4 pointsr/SRSDiscussion

There's a pretty fascinating book about the economics of piracy called "The Invisible Hook" which strikes at a lot of the cliches about piracy; that they were always looking for a fight, that they'd slaughter crews, that they were cruel or arbitrary to fellow crewmembers, and that they were lawless barbarians in contrast to a more humane naval system. Pretty fascinating stuff.

u/weberrFSC · 3 pointsr/philosophy

Economist here! A common definition of a government/state is a "legal monopoly of coercion." Anarchy is simply a situation where that is absent. And just as some governments have been awful and others benevolent and good, anarchy per se is neither. The real question is whether anarchy can allow a flourishing and peaceful society to exist? Of course there are also important normative questions: is a radically decentralized system of power likely to be better or worse than one with fairly centralized authority?

A great place to start is Bruce Benson. There are people who write about "Anarcho-Capitalism" mostly from the Austrian economics enthusiasts, and as fringe as these folks are, there's something to it. Benson attacks an important part of the problem by asking about the workings of the legal system in a state setting and in non-state settings.

A book I haven't read, but that I've heard good things about is The Invisible Hook. Ask yourself this: where do you least expect social cooperation with decentralized authority? Maybe a place filled with short-sighted, uneducated, criminals. An 18th century pirate ship is just such a place. And yet it turns out pirates were among the first to establish checks on central authorities with constitutions.

Another hard case is the case of prisons. And yet the prison economy is flourishing with drugs, cell phones, and other contraband changing hands in a market dependent on trade and cooperation. This happens in spite of a central authority outlawing this activity. Think Soviet black markets in music, except instead of innocent Russians you've got some pretty un-peaceful dudes.

All of these situations shed important light on the possibility of anarchy. They show that some of our basic assumptions about the role of government rest on shakier foundations than we might have thought. People can, and probably will cooperate. Just as surely, they will try to rip each other off. But of course that's true in government too.

u/aduketsavar · 3 pointsr/Anarcho_Capitalism

Anthony De Jasay is one the most smartest yet underappreciated libertarians I guess. Just look up on his books. Besides that Edward Stringham and Peter Leeson are important figures. I always liked Bruce Benson's works. You should also read his article enforcement of property rights in primitive societies

This article on wild west is excellent. It's based on their book Not So Wild, Wild West

I mentioned Peter Leeson, his article on pirates An-Arrgh-Chy is a different perspective on organization outside the state, his book on same subject, The Invisible Hook is a must read. Also his article on Somalia, Better off Stateless: Somalia Before and After Government Collapse is perfect.

And this is another article on law and justice by Bruce Benson.



u/conn2005 · 2 pointsr/Libertarian

So at the time when there were Christian pirates you use Muslim Pirates as your example? It sounds like a contradiction but there were pirates who claimed to be Christian too at the time.

u/anthonyvardiz · 2 pointsr/Anarcho_Capitalism

I would recommend his book on the subject The Invisible Hook. It was a fantastic beach read.

http://www.amazon.com/Invisible-Hook-Hidden-Economics-Pirates/dp/0691150095

u/firstcity_thirdcoast · 2 pointsr/finance

Haha yeah and he's ruined it for the rest of us as he had the brilliant idea to propose to his fiancee on the dedication page of his book -- he got the publisher to agree to withhold that page from all the advance and proof copies so she didn't find out until the hardback was published.

u/insomnia_accountant · 2 pointsr/AskHistorians

I've only got a BA in Economics, but one of my favorite class is "Economic History of US" with A New Economic View of American History: From Colonial Times to 1940 as one of the required readings. It's an amazing book with plenty of graphs and statistics to support their conclusions. It explains the importance of the Erie Canal or "wealth" of a farmers in the 1800s or what does USD500 means to someone in 1800s.

edit: another interesting book called "The Invisible Hook: The Hidden Economics of Pirates" by Professor Peter T. Leeson, a Professor of Economics and Law at George Mason University. The book is about the economics of 18th century pirates/privateers/buccaneers, there's also a podcast episode of two Econ professor (writer & host) talking about this book.

u/keystone98 · 2 pointsr/todayilearned

The Invisible Hook is great book about the economics of pirates.

u/smileyman · 1 pointr/AskHistorians

While you're here, maybe you can answer a question for me. I've been eyeing The Invisible Hook: The Hidden Economics of Pirates by Peter Leeson. I'm wondering if you'd recommend it?

u/classicalecon · 1 pointr/GoldandBlack

>I think your trust of private court systems and mercenary law enforcement is incredibly niave to say the least.

I already explicitly pointed out it's partly speculative. That said, it's not naive at all. Read something like Peter Leeson's The Invisible Hook to see what I mean.

u/biggestlebowskifan · 1 pointr/AskHistorians

THIS. fucken great book. came here to mention it.

link for the lazy to some excerpts
http://www.amazon.com/The-Invisible-Hook-Economics-Pirates/dp/0691150095

u/tenthirtyone1031 · 1 pointr/Documentaries

Check out:

The Not So Wild West

The Invisible Hook

The Private Production of Defense

The Myth of the Rational Voter

I would also recommend Robert Nozick's "Tale of the Slave" since it can be youtube'd and is only about 2 minutes long.

If you like long, heavy reading with huge citations Hoppe is great for that. I'm a lighter reader and I prefer the younger authors, hence pirates. Bryan Caplan is a nice in between author. He's deep but can take you down that rabbit hole with him.

RE: Pirates killing and plundering. A standard deal on the high seas was surrender and you'll be spared, dropped off at the next port. Forced conscription happens now. "Shanghai'ing" is alive an well. I agree, it's wrong. Obviously it's not a tenant of anarcho capitalism but that's why the civic appeals to me. It isn't selling utopia.

u/t3nk3n · 1 pointr/Libertarian

>Property is the coercive exclusion of others from entering certain areas or touching certain objects. That's what it is.

Aside from alll those times when it isn't.

Not enough words to make all the citations: more and more and more and more and more

u/andon94 · 1 pointr/serbia

Sad ste me podsetili.

/u/SpamFilterHatesMe kako si dosao do ove knjige? Jel si je kupio ili skinuo e-book? Ako je e-book, pdf ili mobi?

u/ouchmurdermittenss · 1 pointr/pirates

The Invisble Hook by Peter Leeson.