Reddit reviews The Problem of Pain
We found 39 Reddit comments about The Problem of Pain. Here are the top ones, ranked by their Reddit score.
HarperOne
Reddit reviews The Problem of PainWe found 39 Reddit comments about The Problem of Pain. Here are the top ones, ranked by their Reddit score.
For an incredible counter-argument from someone exponentially smarter than I am, I recommend CS Lewis' book The Problem of Pain. Amazon link: http://www.amazon.com/The-Problem-Pain-C-Lewis/dp/0060652969
The question you're asking yourself is God moral? And if God is not moral then why should I serve him?
>The existence of suffering in a world created by a good and almighty God — "the problem of pain" — is a fundamental theological dilemma and perhaps the most serious objection to the Christian religion.
I recommend this book it'll answer your questions far better than I can. When it comes down to it and this for every person in any religion. Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, and Judaism.
>with fear and trembling your own salvation work out,
In actual fact, I submitted it because the headline is absolutely jaw-dropping.
I assume you think I submitted it because I wanted to score a point against religion. But that's ridiculous, since philosophers deal with the Problem of Pain all the time - it's nothing new.
What I'm really perplexed by is the fact that you seem quite threatened by this, as if you really think it is a point against you. What are you afraid of? Terrible things happen by the Will of the Almighty God all the time, and it's never bothered you before.
On the other hand, billions of human beings believe your religion is the direct path to Hell, and God has struck down five innocent adherents via its ultimate symbol. Perhaps I can understand your concern.
>I feel empty
>
>lack of God’s presence in my heart
Don't take this the wrong way, but feelings are irrelevant. Jesus asks you to assent to and accept the gospel and the beliefs of the Church; he doesn't ask you to feel anything. You don't need to emote anything to be saved.
Sometimes we go through spiritual deserts where we feel nothing and it seems - it seems - we pray into the void and labor in our duties under an empty sky. We still pray and do our duty.
>If the devil was responsible for my depression, then why didn’t an all-powerful God save me from it in my prayers?
This is a trial for you. The command to take up your cross is absolutely real. No one said it was going to be easy.
Regarding why God would do this to you, I would suggest reading The Problem of Pain by C.S. Lewis.
I would continue therapy. Continue to pray as you have. It's possible you may use medication temporarily or permanently. It's possible your life situation may change - I went through a phase like this at this age, and then later I got married and had children and it passed. But I stopped going to Mass at the time and it would have been better if I had continued.
Edited to add: I've been meaning to read this other book as well: The Catholic Guide to Depression by Aaron Kheriarty.
Read and pray some of the Psalms, such as Psalm 22: O my God, I cry by day, but thou dost not answer; and by night, but find no rest etc.
May I suggest the following, and God bless you all: https://www.amazon.com/Problem-Pain-C-S-Lewis/dp/0060652969/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1509885464&sr=1-1&keywords=the+problem+of+pain
Great post. If you think about it, those issues are all central to Christianity. Why does God allow shit to hit the fan? Why, if he's so powerful, did he send himself (in the form of Jesus) to essentially be a powerless Hobbit?
Heck, Lewis even has a book called The Problem of Pain.
The Problem of Pain is a good book on it.
Many people (such as I) approach the problem intellectually; but it's not an intellectual argument (though it is one of only two objections Aquinas brings against the existence of God).
I'm not sure where I land on this, but here are a few possibilities and resources I know of for looking into them a bit more in depth:
As I said i'm not sure what makes most sense. I think the problem of evil is the biggest intellectual difficulty for theism in general and Christianity in particular.
A bit of warning and advice to all who might ask this same question: don't ask hard questions if you won't accept hard answers.
Also: this question has been raised and dealt with so many times -- I would recommend the many books on that that will a) give a better explanation than I can and b) raise a better objection that you can.
Start with this: http://www.amazon.com/Problem-Pain-C-S-Lewis/dp/0060652969
you're too quick to assume suffering is evil, and i'm not saying inflicting suffering on another is a good thing either hahaha. for a better answer, look into this http://www.amazon.com/Problem-Pain-C-S-Lewis/dp/0060652969/ref=cm_lmf_tit_5. And i think you should consider perspective as well. If the world were more perfect less dramatic things would seem worse. Sorta like ying and yang without darkness one could not understand light
Thousands of innocent, young people die daily.
This is something Christians have to reconcile with their belief in God's sovereignty and holiness. Period. Otherwise, the worldview unravels and is certainly a belief worth losing.
I would recommend reading C.S. Lewis's The Problem of Pain in this time of mourning if you're looking for a Christian perspective on where we see God in times of confusing tragedy.
Alrightyyyyyyy. Let's get to it. By no means take my word to be truth, but I will try to answer your questions to the best of my ability. If anyone sees where I've messed up, call me out on it.
First off, I am incredibly glad to see your enthusiasm! As someone only slightly older than you, it really makes me happy to see someone even slightly interested in the Faith.
I hope I have helped even slightly with your questions and hopefully other users will be able to offer a different insight into this for you. Feel free to ask any questions. Best of luck!
Lots of people have asked this question. It's a subset of the problem of evil.
For a specifically Christian answer (not necessarily the answer), check out C.S. Lewis' The Problem of Pain.
If you're interested in this topic, you should read CS Lewis's "The Problem of Pain."
Jesus Among Other Gods
and
Problem of Pain
are two that come to my mind. I think both are great reads for non-believers who were raised Christian or have a solid understanding of Christianity.
Don't be "desensitized." You have to develop a thick skin but keep a soft heart. I know that sounds like a paradox, and it's the hardest thing to do in this field. You will see unimaginable human suffering, but you are there to help when others can not. There is a book by C.S. Lewis called "The Problem of Pain." It's not really an EMS book...but it helped me a little. Here's a link for it on amazon http://www.amazon.com/books/dp/0060652969
I have wrestled with anxiety and panic attacks for 10+ years. My faith has helped me so much. Anxiety and fear can often point us to things that we idolize or elevate above God. I too had horrible withdrawls and will never go back to meds. Writing in a journal really helps, especially when things are going well. It's important to remember that God always brings you through to the other side.
I have three books to suggest:
Running Scared: Fear, Worry, and the God of Rest
http://www.amazon.com/Running-Scared-Fear-Worry-Rest/dp/0978556755
The Anxiety Cure
http://www.amazon.com/Anxiety-Cure-Archibald-Hart/dp/0849942969/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1449213728&sr=1-1&keywords=anxiety+cure
The Problem of Pain
http://www.amazon.com/Problem-Pain-C-S-Lewis/dp/0060652969/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1449213760&sr=1-1&keywords=c.s.+lewis+problem+of+pain
All the best.
>Unnecessary suffering, and some of it is absolutely horrific.
Here is a book written by a far smarter guy than me about the Problem with Pain and Suffering. http://www.amazon.com/The-Problem-Pain-C-Lewis/dp/0060652969
> I don't want to suffer, but that choice is taken out of my hands. I don't want to go to hell, but the only criteria I have to make that determination is ridiculous old stories from various religions and denominations. That is God's fault.
You have a choice in how you deal with every situation. Things happen to us that are out of our control, which is an aspect of a free world. Just because you didn't choose for something to happen doesn't mean you have a choice in how you react to it, for good or for ill. You don't want to go to hell, but you have the choice to either believe that hell is real or it isn't, and to live your life accordingly. You might be totally right, or you could be terribly wrong. But you have the choice to decide if it's real or not.
>You missed my point. Or, more precisely, the rest of that paragraph. "The child has a choice! At some predetermined date that is unknown to the child, if the child has not decided to worship the parent beating him, then the child will be beaten without mercy until the end of time. All the child has to do is truly love the parent..."
Sorry for not addressing this. While it is the popular belief of many Christians that hell is a place of eternal suffering, well, read this and see that some doctrine's have been kind of made up on the subject.
http://www.godsplanforall.com/mistranslationstomeanhell
>YES. That is exactly what it means. Parents are responsible for keeping their children out of harm's way, and they do everything possible to keep their child safe while allowing their child to learn how to operate in the reality that he lives in. Unlike parents, however, God isn't stuck in our reality, with extremely limited means to teach young people how to not hurt themselves.
You are saying that a parent should hover over their child constantly, 24/7, right over their shoulder, to make sure that no harm comes to them? Do you have kids? To do something like that would be smothering them! It wouldn't allow them to grow, and if you were there to punish them every single time they did something wrong, they would resent you. Eventually you need to let your kids make their own decisions. If the child was 12 and he was running through the house, is it still the parents fault? That child knows better by that point.
> So I cannot believe in God. So if God did have a presence in this world, and I still didn't believe in him, should I be tortured forever? And if I fought against that injustice, would you think that I was wrong to do so?
If I believed that God would torture you forever if you didn't believe him, then yes you wouldn't be wrong to fight against that. However, like the article above, I don't think God sends people to Hell forever. That was a question I struggled with when my friend (who was a non-believer), was killed in an accident. I just don't see how a just God could send someone to hell for eternity for a finite lifetime of actions, especially one cut so short.
Dude, why anything? Have you considered that God knows something you don't, and that your extremely limited grasp of the situation has not considered whole slew of factors that, on the eternal time scale, take major precedence?
You're asking about the nature of evil. It's a hard question. I think C.S. Lewis wrote some good stuff on it in The Problem of Pain. Seriously, I couldn't come close to explaining it as well as he does. Here's a Youtube reading, but it's 4 hours.
http://smile.amazon.com/Problem-Pain-C-S-Lewis/dp/0060652969/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1427661998&sr=8-1&keywords=the+problem+of+pain
“Try to exclude the possibility of suffering which the order of nature and the existence of free-wills involve, and you find that you have excluded life itself”
― C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain
I strongly recommend The Problem of Pain by C.S. Lewis: http://www.amazon.com/Problem-Pain-C-S-Lewis/dp/0060652969/
I just finished it recently and it helped my understanding of these questions immensely. I'm not a theologian, but as far as I could tell it was pretty much in line with the teachings of the Church. I would be interested in hearing if I am wrong about that.
The idea, I believe, with execution, is that a person's crimes are too great and therefore must be sent to God for immediate judgment. I don't endorse this philosophy, especially given past abuse on those who clearly didn't deserve death - think victims of war.
The larger idea that you're tackling here is pain; the existence of pain in the world. Why would a loving God allow pain to exist?
Please read C.S. Lewis's (He was an Atheist at one point too, you know!) The Problem of Pain. He explains and addresses all this in much greater depth and with much greater skill than I could at the moment.
http://www.amazon.com/Problem-Pain-C-S-Lewis/dp/0060652969/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1256693843&sr=8-1
hahah now you've got to be trolling me. You haven't listened to a word I've written, and you keep repeating the same exact things I provide you with good arguments against. If this is an honest effort at debating, you are awful at it. You have to realize when a point I make defeats a point you made, so you either have to abandon it or defend it. But you cannot simply repeat it and have that be a legitimate argument. In case you're not trolling, here are some responses.
> No it doesn't [have a unified theology]. Nothing based on the bible can.
That is ridiculous. I could come up with a theology. If millions of people agreed with me, we would have a unified theology. To say that having a unified theology is impossible does not make any sense.
> Is it the word of god or not?
Christians believe the Bible was written by humans. Many believe it was "inspired" by God, but not so far as dictation. It's a more abstract "inspiring" like how love can "inspire" a love poem.
> You said that but clearly you lack the ability to perceive reality or you are mentally insane. You are not in union with god on earth. You are separated from god while you are on earth.
You seem utterly incapable of philosophical thought. Either that or you're just not reading what I'm writing. Let me lay it out for you:
People cannot interact with God via prayer when in hell because they are completely separated from God.
> So he is 100% responsible for all the good things (things you approve of) and bears no responsibility at all for any bad thing.
This is, to your credit, the one good theological question you bring up. It is a difficult question with many answers over the years (from Augustine to C.S. Lewis). One answer is that like darkness is simply the absence of light, evil is simply the absence of goodness. By that mechanism, God could provide the goodness without providing any evil. Another answer is that all evil in the world arises from free will, and that if no one chose evil there would be no evil, only good. This answer tends to rely on true evil being "second-order," such as hatred and malice, not "first-order," like physical pain. In any case, if you want to give this topic any more than a cursory consideration, I suggest you read the linked books above.
> You don't know and you don't care because you don't ask the question.
And now you go back to being obtuse. I do care, and I asked the question in my very comment. I even ventured a guess at an answer! (That our lives are happier and more meaningful as mortals.)
> You said there had to be consequences for choosing wrong or it made no sense to have free will. Now you are saying there are no consequences to choosing wrong because you can sin and still go to heaven. So much for your complete and unified catholic theology.
And, here you go back to seeing things in black-and-white when they are grey, just like with the separation from God issue. Let me break it down for you again:
> Not any more. The catholic church has changed their minds about purgatory.
Factually, verifiably false. You're probably thinking of limbo. See sections 1031, 1472, and 1475 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
> No they don't. God chooses to send them to hell because they do things god does not approve of.
Here is where you completely ignore what I said (that people choose hell, and the existence of a hell is a necessary consequence of free will) and simply repeat your claim. Not an effective tactic.
> How? They made the wrong choice, they exercised their free will in a way god does not approve of. There has to be a consequence for doing something god does not approve of and that consequence is hell.
See section on what happens to people with different levels of sins.
> That's the most evil thing I can think of. What a repugnant religion catholicism is.
You provide absolutely no argument for why what I described is "evil" or "repugnant." Name-calling, too, makes for an ineffective argument.
I didn't want this to escalate to where I had to be a dick about it, but you pretty much asked for it.
While not an easy question to respond in a good way to a child, the answer is very well explained in important Christian books such as:
http://www.amazon.com/The-Problem-Pain-C-Lewis/dp/0060652969
“Try to exclude the possibility of suffering which the order of nature and the existence of free-wills involve, and you find that you have excluded life itself”
― C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain
“His Omnipotence means power to do all that is intrinsically possible, not to do the intrinsically impossible. You may attribute miracles to Him, but not nonsense. There is no limit to His power.
If you choose to say, 'God can give a creature free will and at the same time withhold free will from it,' you have not succeeded in saying anything about God: meaningless combinations of words do not suddenly acquire meaning simply because we prifex to them the two other words, 'God can.'
It remains true that all things are possible with God: the intrinsic impossibilities are not things but nonentities. It is no more possible for God than for the weakest of His creatures to carry out both of two mutually exclusive alternatives; not because His power meets an obstacle, but because nonsense remains nonsense even when we talk it about God.”
― C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain
http://www.amazon.com/The-Problem-Pain-C-Lewis/dp/0060652969
The Problem of Pain
If you want to believe in what's true why don't you start with something small and then work your way up to the bigger things. For example, you still won't admit that the Kalam Cosmological argument has 5 premises in total.
What in the world makes you think you'll ever believe in God if you can't even believe the basic foundation of an argument for Gods existence?
As far as pain and suffering goes, nobody likes pain and suffering. Mankind does not have the perfect answer to that question because we are totally and completely limited in cognitive ability to understand why a being so powerful as God would allow such things to exist.
My question to you is, how much research have you done on that topic? How many books have you read that describe possible reasons for allowing pain and suffering in the world?
You can't expect me to tackle that question and do it justice in a Reddit post, but I can give you the tools to help you understand. Start by reading The Problem of Pain and I would also suggest you read [Is God a Moral Monster] (https://www.amazon.com/God-Moral-Monster-Making-Testament/dp/0801072751/ref=pd_lpo_sbs_14_t_0?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=9XYFJT9F9QNCACS1G48Z).
It's going to take a lot of time and effort to read up on these issues and you won't get a simple answer to that question in a simple Reddit post. The onus is on you to do the proper research because humans have been thinking about this problem and writing books about it for hundreds of years.
The Kalam Cosmological Argument IS evidence for the existence of God.
>I can NOT stop believing in God and yet I can't see how I can worship Him with the evil in this world.
This is an age-old question. It's called "the problem of evil." And the attempt to resolve this question has a name, too: theodicy. C. S. Lewis wrote a book on the subject, called "The Problem of Pain." I haven't read it yet, but it's in my "To read" list. The most common rebuttal to the question of how a loving God can allow all the evil in the world is the concept of free will. I cannot do a good job of explaining it thoroughly, but one of the clearest explanations was in an evangelical magazine I once read. I think there's an online copy, but I'll have to find it.
I don't consider myself Christian anymore, but I still turn to the Bible for comfort. How I personally get through trying times is by remembering Romans 8:28, "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose." Even when I might not see how at the moment, I choose to believe that I will be able to look back and make sense of any present suffering. That does not make it any less difficult, though.
C.S. Lewis deals with this in The Problem of Pain.
A very good response to God allowing suffering to occur can be found in The Problem of Pain by C.S. Lewis. I suggest reading the book in its entirety, but this is a pretty good summary of the book. It is a compelling read and gives an answer to this question.
https://www.amazon.com/Problem-Pain-C-S-Lewis/dp/0060652969/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?keywords=the+problem+of+pain&qid=1562250040&s=gateway&sprefix=the+problem+of+&sr=8-1
Have you read The Problem of Pain by C.S.Lewis? He tackles that issue pretty well regarding evil in the world. Not trying to push anything on you, I'm just saying - he's a smart guy and it's a good read. As for how could God reach out to you if you don't worship Him: haven't you ever loved someone who didn't love you back? I have; Megan Fox still won't return any of my phone calls or emails. And yes, there are some really oblivious Christians out there. Sorry about them; there's not much I can do. However, there are some others out there that understand the evil in the world far better that you and me. Did you know there are more Christian martyrs in the world now then there were when the Romans were feeding them to the lions?
sorry, i am a busy man. i am not forgetting to respond... this question is raised and answered in the book The Problem of Pain by C.S. Lewis... the punchline is:
>"His omnipotence means power to do all that is intrinsically possible, not to do the intrinsically impossible."
i.e. creating a free creature without the possibility of evil is nonsense just as 'can god build a rock so heavy not even he can lift'.
>"Meaningless combinations of words do not suddenly acquire meaning simply because we prefix to them he two words 'God can'"
both quotes are taken from chapter 2: Divine Omnipotence; page 18. i suggest reading the entire book (especially the chess game metaphor on page 25 near the end of the same chapter), or at least chapter two which concerns your current rationale. or, you could not read it and go along presenting this evidence as proof God does not exist and be as dogmatic as many the religious folks you talk rotten about.
Very sorry to hear this, honestly can't imagine.
C.S. Lewis wrote an excellent book called, "The Problem of Pain", I believe he wrote it after losing his wife to cancer or something.
https://www.amazon.com/Problem-Pain-C-S-Lewis/dp/0060652969
Also here's some verses that spring to mind:
"... for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith" Romans 3:23-25
God does not take revenge on those who have faith in his redemptive act.
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort, who comforts us in all our affliction, so that we may be able to comfort those who are in any affliction, with the comfort with which we ourselves are comforted by God. For as we share abundantly in Christ's sufferings, so through Christ we share abundantly in comfort too. If we are afflicted, it is for your comfort and salvation; and if we are comforted, it is for your comfort, which you experience when you patiently endure the same sufferings that we suffer. Our hope for you is unshaken, for we know that as you share in our sufferings, you will also share in our comfort." 2 Corinthians 1:3-7
This life is filled suffering but God can both comfort us and uses any suffering for our good, that of others and his glory, as he has already suffered as fully human for us and promises us an eternal cure for suffering and sin; as challenging as it might seem right now.
So what are your goals? Do you insist on being like everybody else?? That aint going to happen sorry.
Do you get frustrated by the condition and project that onto other people? (Attitude)
Are you completely cynical about life and doubt everybody's honesty? (attitude)
Do you take so many medications that you're numb to everything? (Attitude)
There is a range of choices even you have towards life, whether or not you believe it.
In my own life I deal with neuropathy in my feet and hands. It is so variable and haphazard it is hard to know ahead of time whether I can walk due to this pain, whether I can open a jar or tune in my radio. It varies in intensity from barely there to incredibly hard to deal with from moment to moment.
I cant know your pain because I am not you, but everyone has their own burdens, in your case it insulates you from so much of life which is far more complex than physical pain. I can also guess it also closes your world down to some small place like a bedroom.
If you can read a Bible go back to the book of Job and reread what happens to him and his reaction to it. Compare the other characters reaction to Job's problems
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Job+1&version=KJV
Might also want to read CS Lewis book "The problem of Pain"
https://www.amazon.com/Problem-Pain-C-S-Lewis/dp/0060652969
You mention "privilege" yes of course I am privileged I know and love God and I am confident that there will be a better place for me after death. Because God promised me this. Because of this I can do whatever I can do, and don't worry about the stuff I cant do.
In your case there are people who you interact with daily, are you good to them? Do you even know them and their lives, their wants, their dreams? Because of your condition you are in a unique position to share with them. yes there is some responsibility (probably not a huge one) you have towards them. No amount of pain on your part will eliminate that responsibility. If nothing else you can show them how they too can deal with their own pain when it comes and we all have pain. You CAN be a blessing to everyone around you by choosing that right attitude.
The Problem of Suffering and the Goodness of God - Ravi Zacharias at Johns Hopkins: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t7-gP1gC8gM&app=desktop
Why Series | Why Suffering: Suffering and Jesus | Nabeel Qureshi: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psrvQZj68h4&app=desktop
Nabeel Qureshi on Suffering, Death, and the Cross: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tv3KruwUDWk&app=desktop
Dr Nabeel Qureshi's Response to a Lady Suffering With Multiple Sclerosis: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-Q2VJnHIFE&app=desktop
Rethinking Life After Death (NT Wright): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZC6tbgpsl4&app=desktop
C.S. Lewis on Heaven and the New Earth: God's Eternal Remedy to the Problem of Evil and Suffering: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gs5VzPK8rw0&app=desktop
C.S. Lewis - The Problem of Pain: https://www.amazon.ca/Problem-Pain-C-S-Lewis/dp/0060652969
Why Suffering?: Finding Meaning and Comfort When Life Doesn't Make Sense by Ravi Zacharias and Vince Vitale: https://www.amazon.com/Why-Suffering-Finding-Meaning-Comfort/dp/145554969X
Heaven by Randy Alcorn: https://www.amazon.com/Heaven-Randy-Alcorn/dp/0842379428/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2KI1OVDBGB8J6&keywords=randy+alcorn+heaven+book&qid=1566624191&s=books&sprefix=Randy+Alcorn+heaven%2Cstripbooks-intl-ship%2C150&sr=1-1
It's probably not your only reason, but you mentioned that you cannot worship a god that would allow so much atrocity and chaos. It would be worth your time to really explore your doubts even if only at first for your immediate goal of trying to understand her faith, and ultimately for your own sake. The Problem of Pain and The Reason for God are both books I have read and enjoyed that address those issues and more. Best wishes to you both.
Well, I don't see much value and debating you, seeing as you are an anti-theist, a group I've found far to euphoric to convince of anything; I will, however, point you to CS Lewis' 'The Problem of Pain'. An exceptional book by an exceptional man.