Reddit reviews Torn: Rescuing the Gospel from the Gays-vs.-Christians Debate

Oh hey, that's me! :)

I just want to say that I think all the books posted so far are worth a read. I second the recommendation of Vines' and Brownson's books for their thoughtful, in-depth biblical analysis from folks who love the Bible and have a very high view of Scripture. (They're also great people.) And Jeff Chu's book is a fascinating look at the different ways people wrestle with their faith and sexuality. (He's also great people.)

Since I lurk here, I guess I should say something about my own book, huh?

Torn is aimed squarely at an evangelical audience, especially for those who aren't yet affirming; it walks them through the human side of the issue, what it's like to grow up gay and evangelical, why people are gay, where the church has missed the mark, etc. It also gets into the biblical questions (again, with a high view of Scripture) though that's not the sole focus of the book like it is with Vines and Brownson. It's designed to be more accessible for folks who haven't gone very deep on this yet, to help them understand why it matters so much and what they can do about it. I like to think it complements the other books well.

Not all Churches are intolerant. There are many which are welcoming of all, including LGBT. Please look to attend one of these, so that you can experience the joy of being welcomed into Christ's family, and supported by those who love you. To find an affirming church in your area you can use this Church finder or this one.

If you are interested in reading more about the scriptural affirmation of Gay relationships then you can read Justin Lee's essay here, buy his book, or watch Matthew Vines' youtube video, either his short summary or his longer talk.

Read the scriptures, ask for advice from others (see /r/GayChristians and /r/OpenChristian), pray and meditate on Christ's love and His overwhelming desire to give you abundant and everlasting life. Always be careful to avoid the toxic words of hate and fear from others. People will always fear what they don't understand. But Christ is love and perfect love casts out fear.

1 Corinthians 6:9-11 New International Version (NIV)

9 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Here is a video that argues about the meaning of this passage.

Some people point to Sodom and Gomorrah being destroyed by God as a sign He condemns homosexuality. Here is a another video with the mildly annoying bald guy arguing the meaning of those stories.

Leviticus 18:22 - "Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable." (NIV)

Leviticus 20:13 - "If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads." (NIV)

Romans 1:26-27 - "Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion." (NIV)

I basically believe that the modern bible as a few "minor" translation errors where passages that are talking about pagan temple prostitution, Roman male pedophilc sex slave relationships, and male permeability not under a monogamous marriage. I'm gay and christian and I don't see why I can't marry a man later in my life (other then that my family would disprove of it immensely since they don't hold my same views).

A decent book on this subject is Torn: Rescuing the Gospel from the Gays-vs.-Christians Debate.

1. God loves you unconditionally and gives more grace than we could ever deserve.
   
2. You aren't alone. I felt this exact way when I found out I was attracted to guys when I first started college.
   
3. Don't give into pressure to choose one side or the other right away or even soon. This is a process of learning and growth and it probably sucks right now, but lean into the tension. Coming out / being 100% confident of your sexuality really soon is something that is, in my opinion, overhyped. Take your time.
   
4. I don't know how much research you have done yet, but I would recuse yourself from your currently held position and take a stance of neutrality. It's important as a Christian to figure out why you believe what you believe. This can be hard to do, but see what the Side A (Affirming) crowd's arguments and experiences are. Take notes. Understand why they genuinely believe that they are not acting against God. See how and why they counter their opponents' arguments. Once you have fully done that (and by fully I mean take your time and do it for a few months), then look up the non-affirming (Side B, Y, and X) positions and do the same. Even if this doesn't help you come to a conclusion right away, this still is a healthy practice of understanding the why behind the what.
   
5. This process of testing the foundations of your beliefs is/should probably extend to issues beyond LGBT inclusion in the church. One main pillar behind any LGBT/church argument is a stance on if Scripture is inerrant or not / what does it mean for something to be "inspired by God" / Should we hold to the same values as people 2,000 years ago (we've already expanded / moved on some from that)?
   
6. Remember to take breaks from this. Be diligent, but don't let this pursuit of the truth consume you.
   
7. Find non-judgmental friends who won't try to preach at you and can support you in your time of discernment and beyond.
   
   If you would like to PM me and ask more questions, I'm always happy to help people who were where I was 4 years ago.
   
   ​
   
   Here are a few good Affirming (A) resources to start out with:
   
   Torn: Rescuing the Gospel from the Gays-VS-Christians Debate by Justin Lee (A)
   
   God and the Gay Christian: The Biblical Case in Support of Same-Sex Relationships by Matthew Vines (A)
   
   Modern Kinship by David and Constantino Khalaf (A)
   
   Blue Babies Pink by Brett Trapp / B.T. Harmann (A)
   
   Bible, Gender, Sexuality: Reframing the Church's Debate on Same-Sex Relationships by James Brownson (A)
   
   Sex and the Single Savior: Gender and Sexuality in Biblical Interpretation by Dale Martin (A)
   
   Risking Grace, Loving Our Gay Family and Friends Like Jesus by Dave Jackson (A)
   
   ​
   
   I'm compiling a list of other good resources / bad ones (from all perspectives, not just ones I disagree with), so let me know if you're looking for something more specific.

There are actually MANY resources available to you fortunately! There are many people in the same position that you are in who find they can live a life of being themselves while still believing and following Jesus and the teachings of Christianity. To help your search, I would suggest making a profile and putting yourself out there/ checking out this website:

https://www.gaychristian.net/

As well as reading up on the book titled "Torn: Rescuing the Gospel from the Gays-vs.-Christians Debate" by Justin Lee.

(http://www.amazon.com/Torn-Rescuing-Gospel-Gays-vs-Christians-Debate/dp/1455514306)

His book makes a way for there to be a healthy conversation between different groups who believe it is OK to be gay and christian in a loving, committed same sex relationship (the "side A" field) and those who believe it is OK to be gay and christian, as long as the gay person is celibate (the "side B" people)...

There is a facebook group that you can join who have been connected through the gay christian website network... just put yourself out there and there are many opportunities for connection!

Also: Justin Lee, the founder of gaychristian.net wrote an amazing book called Torn: Rescuing the Gospel from the Gays-vs.-Christians Debate. I highly recommend it. In it he tells his story about discovering as a teenager that he had same sex attractions, and he asked a lot of the questions that you ask. /u/therealsilvanus, please check out the book. And his website provides a safe, nonjudgmental place to discuss these types of questions with other Christians who have SSA. Good luck.

Watch the below 3 part series, not only is it Hilarious. These guys are "still" gay. They choose this therapy and camp program groups which are not legal. What happens in camp stays in camp (I wonder if they get their yearly fill). One can change his behavior but not his orientation nor attraction. The head of Exodus International the worlds largest Ex Gay Therapy Org said "you cannot change" before shutting down his group. The 1% that changed were bisexuals or those who got married and had relapses into being gay on the down low with wife and kids. There are several organizations like GCN (Gay Christian Network - see video) which are gay friendly and religious if that's why you are seeking this.

http://www.vice.com/video/gay-conversion-therapy-part-1-195?utm_source=viceyoutube
http://www.amazon.com/Torn-Rescuing-Gospel-Gays-vs-Christians-Debate/dp/1455514306
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QImNx1JA3BI Full Length Documentary on Youtube on Being Gay and Christian
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ezQjNJUSraY Matthew Vine on Gay Verses and Breaks Them Down
http://new.livestream.com/GCNconf - Has All the Speakers Keynotes from Gay Christian Network Conference; just had a conference with 1,500 gay Christians
http://www.gaychristian.net Forum / Message Board .
https://www.youtube.com/user/GayChristianNetwork - all sorts of videos why its ok to be gay and christian

Not everyone believes it to be such. There's good evidence with more recent looks at the original text that the word abomination was inappropriately used there.

There are multiple books on the subject, but may I suggest Torn: Rescuing the Gospel from the Gays-vs.-Christians Debate.

And then of course Jesus never spoke of homosexuality, for whatever reason.

As Christians we should always be searching for truth. Because all truth is God's truth. And we should be open to having our beliefs changed as we get new information. :)

As others have recommended, if you want to explore and better understand the belief that being gay isn’t a sin, then I also recommend Torn by Justin Lee or God and the Gay Christian by Matthew Vines.

Given your title I'm amazed no-one has recommended this book yet:

Torn: Rescuing Rescuing the Gospel from the Gays-vs.-Christians Debate

The author is the founder of the Gay Christian Network, (www.gaychristian.net) which supports gay Christians who believe it's acceptable to be in monogamous relationships and those who believe they are called to be celibate. There are several interviews and such with him online that you might want to search for. His personal blog is here: http://gcnjustin.tumblr.com/

The book Torn: Rescuing the Gospel from the Gays-vs.-Christians Debate helped me (mostly) come to terms with my faith and sexuality. It's part biography, part theologian argument regarding accepting homosexuality and Christianity. It has a view on homosexuality being okay, assuming the same rules of heterosexual marriage (ex. abstinence until marriage). It's $8.82 used from Amazon with Prime shipping.

I’m not convinced homosexuality is a choice. I know this isn’t really an answer to your question, but this book does a really good job of exploring Christianity coexisting with homosexuality.

Torn: Rescuing the Gospel from the Gays-vs.-Christians Debate https://www.amazon.com/dp/1455514306/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_hHDJAbJM7A1FQ

There's a few, but three that I'd read are:

https://www.amazon.com/Torn-Rescuing-Gospel-Gays-vs-Christians-Debate/dp/1455514306/

https://www.amazon.com/UnClobber-Rethinking-Misuse-Bible-Homosexuality/dp/066426221X/

and http://www.godandthegaychristian.com/

Please, read the book Torn. This is a good book about a Godly man who is a homosexual.

I have three books on my shelves at the moment that I'd gladly recommend:

Torn by Justin Lee. Outside of the US the book is called Unconditional.

Bible Gender Sexuality by James V. Brownson.

God and the Gay Christian by Matthew Vines.

I know. I know you didn't mean it like that. Or, at least, I'm trying to know that--but, you know, after years of bigots and the ignorant proclaiming that the QUILTBAG community is dragging everyone down a rainbow-bricked road to hell, where we're blamed for hurricanes, and 9/11, and Boston, and the like, it's hard not to see that first paragraph and be, well, a little bitter?

Before I came out to my mom, on separate occasions, she told me that two things were American problems that never happened in the old country: serial killings, and gays. Never mind the fact that she was wrong on both counts. Just comparing the two, and terming them both as problems?

I'm pretty sure my mom doesn't think my preference for the company of men is as bad as if, say, I started murdering people en mass in real life. I'm pretty sure she doesn't even really remember saying those things, given that they were at least a decade and a half ago.

But I remember.

I'm not saying this to discount your... evolution on this matter. I'm glad that there are more people coming around on this, understanding that the extent of our gay agenda is generally no different from anyone's normal day or their hopes and dreams. I just wish there weren't comparisons with more horrible things out there.

Anyway, I don't know if you're one of faith (I'm not), but there have been some interesting books of late trying to bridge Christianity, well-known for its hatred of the queer community (perhaps not completely intentionally), which I think might be of interest to you?

-Torn: Rescuing the Gospel from the Gays-vs.-Christians Debate by Justin Lee. I don't think his theology requires as much gymnastics as some other modern interpretations, but I find myself still not being able to really understand why he wants to hold so fast to it.

-The Cross in the Closet by Timothy Kurek. He's the one with the Indiegogo campaign from a while back, pretty much doing Black Like Me or Self-Made Man, only as a gay person. It has all the flavor of being a witness, which again, completely escapes my grasp, but.

-Does Jesus Really Love Me? by Jeff Chu. I think he's far, far too gentle on some of the more odious sects, and far, far, far too harsh on those that decided to leave the faith. But it's an interesting journey, nonetheless.