Reddit reviews Unconditional Parenting: Moving from Rewards and Punishments to Love and Reason

I find these comments beyond disturbing. People actually defending hitting little humans as a means to alter their behavior. I have a 3 year old who has never been hit and a 6month old who will never be hit. My wife and I are constantly praised at how well our child listens. Which is absurd. The last thing we want is a child that blindly follows what he is told. Our child listens to us because we've treated him with respect his whole life. We've built trust with him. There are limits that need to be enforced, but enforcement does not mean punishment. Hopefully a 4yr old is not allowed to play by himself on a yard that faces a street. It's the parents job to set up a safe environment for a child play in, its not the child's job to be able to determine which areas he can play in and not get killed.

I equate hitting children to lazy parenting.

At times parenting without things like spanking can be challenging, because it leads to kids with a stronger will and less blind acceptance of authority. But in the long run it will lead to a happier more self sufficient adult.

I was spanked as a child, I've also been present when other's have spanked their children. I have never witnessed a spanking that was not emotionally charged. Meaning the parents reach a "point" where they need to "teach" the child something. So you have a situation of high emotion, both in the parent and in the child, then the parent basically says (with their actions) that "you do what you are told" or I will have no compassion for you. Not only that, but I will physically impose my will on you until you comply. Being an emotionally charged situation allows it to very easily lead into something more violent than "simple spanking".

It is "easier" to hit a kid when they don't do want you want. And it will alter their behavior. Using fear to impose your will on a child will lead to fearful adults. Take a look at our culture. American culture runs on fear. I do not find this coincidental.

Sweden has had a ban on corporal punishment since 1979, and as of 2012, 24 other countries have banned it as well. So it is quite possible to raise kids without hitting them.

Another question you should ask yourself is whether punishing child makes sense at all.

Some resources:

Unconditional Parenting

Raising an Emotionally Intelligent Child

EDIT Grammar, readability.

Just one? How to Talk so Kids Will Listen & Listen so Kids Will Talk.

Will you let me do a second? (Hahaha YOU HAVE NO CHOICE!) Playful Parenting.

And because I don't know how to follow instructions, Unconditional Parenting. This one is a bit lacking in practical applications and focuses more on the why of things. I'd read it sort of as a foundation before the other two, but I wouldn't recommend it on its own.

Bonus book: The Explosive Child. Useful even if you don't have a behaviorally challenging kid (though some similar techniques show up in How to Talk). If you do, this might belong at the top of the list.

Here's my 2 cents on the subject. First, I'd give up on the idea of debating. Most of the debating I see is nothing more than verbal warfare--how productive is that? Well, it probably depends on what your objectives are. Are you out to belittle people and make yourself feel better? Than verbal warfare is the way to go. Are you out to improve knowledge or discover truth? Then debating probably isn't the route to take. Whatever, I'd establish the objective upfront. I'd recommend simply asking questions and providing sources.

So what are some questions involved in the spanking subject?

1. What are the parents goals?
   
2. Do the methods applied meet the desired goals?
   
3. What is the self-ownership status of a child?
   
4. When does a child gain full agency?
   
   
5. Goals will vary by parent, but shouldn't this question be asked every time the subject comes up? Most parents will answer with goals like happy, productive, independent, socially skilled, able to think critically, whatever. I doubt many parents will say out lound that they want obedience, silence, blind acceptance of authority, shyness, inability to bond, addictive behavior, a poor relationship with their parents as adults, approach-avoidance behavior, depression, divorce, etc. The point is, the question needs to be asked, and the answer must frame the response.
   
   
6. Do the methods applied meet the desired goals? Now would be an excellent time to provide links and sources. There is a wealth of information available on the effectiveness and consequences of different parenting techniques. Read the sources, compare results to the desired goals, make your decision. No emotional and verbal warfare required.
   
   
7. What is the self-ownership status of a child? I've yet to see a complete theory or philosophy on this subject. I'd recommend saying you don't know or labeling all proposals as a "working theory" to diffuse all the negative reactions you're likely to get on this emotional subject. Personally I think parents should have a trustee relationship with their children, and that a child's request to leave a household should be honored as soon as he can make it. I have no idea how to put that in an argument but suspect it would involve knowledge of cognitive development.
   
   
8. When does a child gain full agency? Well, first you have the whole can one own oneself debate. Then you'd have to argue when that occurs, if it does. I again lean towards the trustee relationship and gradual development of agency.
   
   Here's sources for those interested in studying the issue instead of yelling at each other:
   
   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbiq2-ukfhM
   
   http://www.alfiekohn.org/index.php
   
   http://www.amazon.com/Unconditional-Parenting-Moving-Rewards-Punishments/dp/0743487486/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1338338284&sr=8-1
   
   http://www.amazon.com/Beyond-Discipline-Compliance-Alfie-Kohn/dp/1416604723/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1338338349&sr=1-1
   
   http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_1_17?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=punished+by+rewards+by+alfie+kohn&sprefix=punished+by+rewar%2Cstripbooks%2C256
   
   http://www.amazon.com/No-Contest-Case-Against-Competition/dp/0395631254/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1338338440&sr=1-2
   
   http://nospank.net/
   
   http://www.rie.org/
   
   http://www.wholechild.org/vision/documents/TheEffectsOfImprovingCaregivingOnEarlyDevelopment.pdf
   
   http://www.echoparenting.org/
   
   http://www.becomingtheparent.com/all/hp.html
   
   http://drgabormate.com/
   
   http://www.committedparent.com/
   
   http://www.janetlansbury.com/
   
   http://www.regardingbaby.org/
   
   http://www.eileensclasses.com/
   
   http://www.mindfulparentingnyc.com/Mindful_Parenting/Welcome.html
   
   http://www.riemiami.com/
   
   
   http://www.amazon.com/Dear-Parent-Caring-Infants-Respect/dp/1892560062/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1338339719&sr=1-1
   
   http://www.amazon.com/Your-Self-Confident-Baby-Encourage-Abilities/dp/1118158792/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1338339719&sr=1-3
   
   http://www.amazon.com/The-RIE-Manual/dp/1892560003/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1294253451&sr=1-1
   
   http://www.amazon.com/Blessing-Skinned-Knee-Teachings-Self-Reliant/dp/1416593063/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1298050770&sr=8-1
   
   http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=ruth+anne+hammond&x=0&y=0
   
   http://www.amazon.com/Becoming-Parent-You-Want-Sourcebook/dp/0553067508/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1294253521&sr=1-1
   
   http://www.amazon.com/Emotional-Life-Toddler-Alicia-Lieberman/dp/0028740173/ref=pd_sim_b_2
   
   http://www.amazon.com/Theories-Attachment-Introduction-Ainsworth-Brazelton/dp/1933653388/ref=sr_1_10?ie=UTF8&qid=1298051329&sr=8-10
   
   http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000XR2CGU/ref=s9_simh_gw_p14_d0_i1?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-2&pf_rd_r=1C1SJ1BR2T4ADEN9VMJM&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=470938631&pf_rd_i=507846
   
   http://www.amazon.com/Unfolding-Infants-Natural-Gross-Development/dp/1892560070/ref=pd_sim_b_1
   
   http://www.youtube.com/user/stefbot/videos?query=parenting
   
   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zyNQFG7C8JM
   
   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjxXuDYdBzY
   
   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONNRfflggBg
   
   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1GJsCa_4G8
   

This is going to get lost in all these comments, but if you want to get a better perspective on this, Alfie Khon has a very interesting book, Unconditional Parenting, that describes this way of thinking in a bit more detail.

The short of it is that the act of rewarding for one's actions can be as detrimental as being punished for your actions. He backs this up by sourced research in his book, as well as some interesting examples. His point in all of this is to get a parent or loved one to get past a cause-effect relationship and to gear themselves up for a dialogue with their child as to why something deserved praise or criticism without the trap of fearing a future punishment or needing a reward in order to receive the love of a parent.

The book isn't a "how-to" but more of a way of thinking. Surprisingly, I use some of his ideas with the "grown-ups" in my family with pretty good results.

Eep, had it wrong. Unconditional Parenting. Here's the Amazon link. Well worth it.

https://www.amazon.com/Unconditional-Parenting-Moving-Rewards-Punishments/dp/0743487486

How old is your child? Can you think of specific situations you have struggled with?

First, full disclosure. I'm not a parent, but I am wrestling with this myself while waiting to adopt an infant. I am also acting as a pseudo secondary mother to my teenage sister who is still under the thumb of our nmom. The work for the former, in conjunction with facing issues with nmom head on, has resulted in a huge difference with my sister. I used to perpetuate my mom's abuses, but since then an increase in empathy, patience and respect for autonomy has made all the difference. Situationally it looks different with younger kids, but it comes from the same place.


YMMV of course, but thus far our philosophy can be boiled down to a few core elements:

• Children are immature yet whole beings, entitled to every bit of respect that adults are entitled to
  
  
• Discipline means literally "to teach." Discipline =/= punishment, humiliation, or shame
  
  
• We "work with" instead of "do to"
  
  
• Parenting is the gradual process of perpetually stepping back
  
  
  Of my giant stack of books, I'd recommend:
  
  
• Unconditional Parenting by Alfie Kohn Resource on gentle parenting. Heavily cited and supported by evidence. Also see The Myth of the Spoiled Child.
  
  
• Parenting from the Inside Out by Daniel Siegel Addresses attachment theory, how it effects brain development, how childhood attachment style and trauma effects your parenting as an adult, and how to work with it. Also key is the difference between enmeshing yourself in your child's feelings vs guiding them through them.
  
  
• No Drama Discipline by Daniel Siegel I haven't read this yet, but I'm a fan of Siegel, so...
  
  
• How to Talk So Kids Will Listen & Listen So Kids Will Talk by Adele Faber This is a classic, very readable. Gives concrete strategies, and walks through practical scenarios. Discusses natural consequences vs purely punitive measures.
  
  
  If you're a busy parent who doesn't have time to read, I highly recommend this Siegel playlist about attachment and this video about communication and boundaries. Those two will probably lead you down a pretty decent youtube rabbit hole.
  
  Good luck!

Parents are responsible for their childrens behavior. This could be a blind spot preventing you from holding your own parents accountable. If you can't emotionally understand this you wont logically understand this following argument.

If a parent needs to get their children to do something or not to do something out of fear of punishment then it's not a relationship. It's dictatorship and you'll never get respect or compliance from your children when you act like you know what's best for them - and this is the reason why abuse escalates.

It's the parents responsibility to teach their children right and wrong by talking and listening to them, helping them understand, and ultimately modelling that behaviour themselves.

Before you have children, it's important to work on yourself because everything you experienced as a child from abusive parents thats lingering in your unconscious will come to the surface when you have your own children.

It seems you area already projecting some of this by thinking experimentation like smoking in the room or lying about homework is bad. Wouldn't it be better to foster a relationship where your children can you tell they tried a cigarette or don't want to do their homework? That way you can actually be involved in their lives.

If you raise your children correctly I wouldn't worry about most bad activities because you'll give them the skills to know better. The science shows that addictions, victim of bullying and peer pressure are all caused by child abuse and an unstable home. If you want to know more about this look up Gabor Mate (I have more resources).

Actually as children get older they become easier to parent when you raise them peacefully and being involved because you have built up a relationship.

Here are books I'd recommend:
Why Love Matters: How Affection Shapes a Baby's Brain
http://www.amazon.com/Why-Love-Matters-Affection-Shapes/dp/1583918175

The Drama of the Gifted Child: The Search for the True Self http://www.amazon.com/Drama-Gifted-Child-Search-Revised/dp/0465016901

The Truth Will Set You Free: Overcoming Emotional Blindness and Finding Your True Adult Self http://www.amazon.com/Truth-Will-Set-You-Free/dp/0465045855[2]

For Your Own Good: Hidden Cruelty in Child-Rearing and the Roots of Violence http://www.amazon.com/Your-Own-Good-Child-Rearing-Violence/dp/0374522693[3]

Stefan Molyneux: Real-Time Relationships: The Logic of Love http://www.freedomainradio.com/free/books/FDR_3_PDF_Real_Time_Relationships.pdf

On Truth: The Tyranny of Illusion http://board.freedomainradio.com/blogs/freedomain/archive/2008/09/11/book-on-truth-the-tyranny-of-illusion.aspx

Between Parent and Child: The Bestselling Classic That Revolutionized Parent-Child Communication http://www.amazon.com/Between-Parent-Child-Revolutionized-Communication/dp/0609809881

Playful Parenting http://www.amazon.com/Playful-Parenting-Lawrence-J-Cohen/dp/0345442865

Unconditional Parenting http://www.amazon.com/Unconditional-Parenting-Moving-Rewards-Punishments/dp/0743487486

Raising Our Children, Raising Ourselves http://www.naomialdort.com/book.html

Parent Effectiveness Training http://www.amazon.com/Parent-Effectiveness-Training-Responsible-Children/dp/0609806939

The Philosophical Baby: What Children's Minds Tell Us About Truth, Love, and the Meaning of Life http://www.amazon.com/Philosophical-Baby-Childrens-Minds-Meaning/dp/0374231966

What's Going on in There? : How the Brain and Mind Develop in the First Five Years of Life http://www.amazon.com/Whats-Going-There-Brain-Develop/dp/0553378252

Becoming the Kind Father: A Son's Journey http://www.amazon.com/Becoming-Kind-Father-Sons-Journey/dp/0865715823

Connection Parenting http://connectionparenting.com/connection-parenting-book.html

I really love Alfie Kohn's book, "Unconditional Parenting: Moving from Rewards and Punishments to Love and Reason".

It doesn't really offer too much in terms of specific examples of how to deal with scenarios, but it really keeps me grounded when dealing with my 2.5 year old son (who often seems to have a personal vendetta against me). This book keeps both my husband and me in check when we begin to feel like he's an inherently "bad" creature, as many parenting techniques seem to reinforce (ie "give an inch and they'll take a mile; kids will be bad if they know they can get away with it; if you don't punish them immediately you're reinforcing/allowing bad behavior"). The author emphasizes teaching empathy, teaching kids about the effects their behavior will have on OTHER people, not just on themselves; teaching kids to behave because it's the right thing to do, not out of fear of punishment or desire for reward. He's also not "harpy" - he admits that he's made mistakes, and that it's totally okay to "slip up" or make mistakes.

It also opened my eyes to how I was parented and the effects it had on me as an adolescent and adult. The book challenged me to think about how I want my son to feel and what kind of person I'd like him to grow into, and how traditional "conditional" parenting techniques may hinder my goals for him and our relationship.

Some kids don't respond to the carrot and stick approach. Some, like my younger son, are equally pissed off by carrots and sticks.

Two books changed the way I parented both of my children. The first one I think is the better of the two but the second is much more geared toward parenting.
Punished by Rewards: The Trouble with Gold Stars, Incentive Plans, A's, Praise, and Other Bribes
http://www.amazon.com/Punished-Rewards-Trouble-Incentive-Praise/dp/0618001816/ref=pd_sim_b_5
Unconditional Parenting: Moving from Rewards and Punishments to Love and Reason
http://www.amazon.com/Unconditional-Parenting-Moving-Rewards-Punishments/dp/0743487486

Also check out Alfie Kohn's Unconditional Parenting: http://www.amazon.com/Unconditional-Parenting-Moving-Rewards-Punishments/dp/0743487486

Do your share of the work, plus some. Even if you think you’re doing “half” the work....do some more. It is often the case that dads don’t do as much work when it comes to parenting (yes, this is a stereotype but is often based in reality), but one advantage of twins is that you each can be holding one or changing one, etc. I know that when my wife and I looked at each other and saw a baby in each other’s arms, it was clear that we were BOTH working, not just her.

With that said, anytime she had both (tandem nursing, for example) I made sure I was cleaning the house or cooking food.

Other random things/books that helped us, not necessarily twin-related:

Baby Led Weaning

Unconditional Parenting

I read this book and I really like what it had to say. I liked how it framed developing a relationship with your child. My kids are 2 and 4 yrs old. So who knows how this stuff will end up working out. So far so good. I want a different relationship with my children than I had with my parents. So I am doing things differently, very differently. I also don't like the typical American parent, child relationship. So I looked for parenting philosophies outside of the American norm. I figure to not raise a typical American kid, teenager, and adult I would use different parenting methods.

You should read his book. It's called Unconditional Parenting. Like most parenting books, there are great & useful things in there, along with less useful stuff.

Unconditional Parenting - check out this book http://www.amazon.com/Unconditional-Parenting-Moving-Rewards-Punishments/dp/0743487486

Well, in general I agree especially that society doesn't need competition. The examples given generally are more gross and are easy to agree with. I would love to live in society who's members supported one another in their day to day lives. But I still think that this anti-competition stance is really over reaching; essentially throwing the baby out with the bath water. It's practically the same as fundamentalist christians concluding that sex is evil because clearly it causes harm in society. I'm absolutely sure that there is loads of data to prove this point too. But Alfie tends to insist that he is right simply because of how much research there is - I believe the data are there but that doesn't mean that his conclusions are right. I read Unconditional Parenting and in it he makes the exact same argument. To me this is just going from one extreme to the other. It makes me think of the time when I was playing with the other kids and there were issues of over competitiveness, so someone suggested we play essentially without any goals. From my POV this is Orwellian, I can understand the problem, but what solution can a society adopt that isn't authoritarian? While I don't know for sure, it would seem to me that this problem of over competitiveness is just another blight on a screwed up society. It doesn't seem that aboriginal societies had this issue, I tend to think that they lived more authentically then we do - somehow they seemed to both co-operate and find an outlet for competition. I don't think we really need to reinvent the wheel when it comes to managing social issues.

Unconditional Parenting: Moving from Rewards and Punishments to Love and Reason


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