Reddit reviews Virtually Normal: An Argument about Homosexuality

I see your point, but do you think that a bunch of queer kids sitting at a restaurant will even get on the news? The civil disobedience you're referring to in previous posts worked because the people doing it weren't supposed to be there - just existing in those spaces was enough to cause a commotion. Fortunately, we're not banned from CFA, so just sitting there won't be as shocking and thought provoking as it was in the 1960s.

Some LGBT people see themselves as virtually normal and want only to be assimilated fully into heterosexual society. Others of us, myself included, are uninterested in appearing "respectable" to the people that oppress us and would rather have our queerness acknowledged openly. I'm not going to tell you how you should live out your sexuality, but please try to see where we're coming from and why we don't think hiding our sexuality is a winning strategy for real progress.

Sources:

Michael Warner, gender theorist, against gay marriage for sexual liberation reasons, calls it “Trouble with Normal”http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674004412

The original “conservative” case for gay marriage on gay marriages being “virtually normal”http://www.amazon.com/Virtually-Normal-Andrew-Sullivan/dp/0679746145/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1345952112&sr=1-1&keywords=virtually+normal+sullivan


A gay organization dedicated to social justicehttp://q4ej.org/
Organization that fights for “alternatives to marriage”http://www.unmarried.org/

Feminist perspective that argues against marriage, but for equalityhttp://msmagazine.com/blog/blog/2010/08/27/equality-without-marriage/

Transgender activist Kate Bornstein on bullying, rather than gay marriage, should be a goal:http://katebornstein.typepad.com/kate_bornsteins_blog/2009/12/open-letter-to-lgbt-leaders-who-are-pushing-marriage-equality.html

Is Gay Marriage racist http://www.makezine.enoughenough.org/Is%20Gay%20Marriage%20Racist.pdf

Critics who are against gay marriage, but for social justice:http://www.amazon.com/Against-Equality-Queer-Critiques-Marriage/dp/0615392687/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1345951108&sr=8-1&keywords=Against+Equality%3A+Queer+Critiques+of+Gay+Marriage

One cultural commentator who see gay marriage as a desire to conform:http://www.amazon.com/Why-Are-Faggots-Afraid-Objectification/dp/1849350884/ref=pd_bxgy_b_text_y

One article against gay marriage: Is the LGBT movement walking down the aisle to nowhere?http://inthesetimes.com/article/13466/beyond_gay_marriage/
Another gay activist against gay marriage:http://hivster.com/?p=6315

When I initially came out, I was religious (Lutheran), and I actually came out with the help of my campus pastor in our Lutheran Student Community. I continued active participation in my religious community, and most of my pastors after that time were aware of my identity, so don't ever feel as if there's no place for you in religious communities. In the US, at least, mainline protestant denominations (Lutheran, Anglican/Episocopal, Presbyterian, UCC) often tend to be much more accepting than so-called "nondenominational" or Evangelical churches, but there aren't hard and fast guarantees.

(Just as full disclosure, I'm no longer religious, but it has nothing to do with my coming out, and much more to do with other philosophical changes and ideas.)

There has been a lot of good advice in this thread, so I really don't feel the need to repeat it. I do, however, want to share few resources that might be helpful:

• Virtually Normal: An Argument about Homosexuality - This book by Andrew Sullivan is probably my favorite work about homosexuality and being gay. If you have a chance to read nothing else, this would be my recommendation. It presents four arguments from four different perspectives for and against homosexuality, then addresses what Sullivan feels are their flaws and where they are misapplied. Sullivan then attempts to synthesize his own philosophy of what it is to be gay. It's something that is a bit of a cliche, but this book really did change my life. (Sullivan is a gay Catholic political conservative — the real, intellectual kind, not the reactionary kind — who is married to a man, and while I don't always agree with him, I adore his writing and value his perspective.)
  
  
• What The Bible Really Says About Homosexuality - This is a very good book covering the theological angle, looking at passages in the Bible, and analyzing the various translations and apparent meanings of the handful of passages that ever touch on homosexuality. I read this when I first came out. Eventually, when you come out to your family, this may be a helpful resource for them, as well. (As others have said, until you are financially independent, you should probably not come out to them.)
  
  
• God and the Gay Christian: The Biblical Case in Support of Same-Sex Relationships - I've not read this book by Matthew Vines, but I have heard very good things about it. It may be helpful both now and down the line.
  
  In your situation, I understand it may be hard to get these books or read them, but if you can do so privately and safely, I'd highly recommend them as avenues for exploring your identity and giving you a theological and philosophical frame to think about your identity from. I'm not sure if you're worried about disapproval or punishment from divine or human sources when you say, "I'm afraid my own religion will punish me for something that I can't control," but in either case, you may find these helpful.

> So why do you feel that if you can't have kids you shouldn't get marriage

What is the purpose of marriage if not to have a couple capable of procreation joined for life?

> Based on your use of the words sanctimony I would guess it's due to religious beliefs, which is fine it's your right to believe whatever you like, but does that give you the right to stop others from getting married?

No. I am but one vote and one opinion. The decision about who should be married and who should not is a government decision that is swayed by a majority vote.

> What negative impacts on society will there be if gay marriage is legalised?

Think back to the 1950s, when illegitimacy and cohabitation were relatively rare. At that time many asked how one young woman having a baby out of wedlock or living with an unmarried man could hurt their neighbours. Now we know the negative social effects these two living arrangements have spawned: lower marriage rates, more instability in the marriages that are enacted, more fatherless children, increased rates of domestic violence, increased modern poverty (that is, those within modern societies living below the poverty line), and a vast expansion of government welfare expenses.

Another effect will be that sexual fidelity will be detached from the commitment of marriage. That's not just my opinion. Andrew Sullivan, who is (according to his website) a Gay Rights Advocate, wrote a book called Virtually Normal and in it he wrote "Among gay male relationships, the openness of the contract makes it more likely to survive than many heterosexual bonds...There is more likely to be a greater understanding of the need for extramarital outlets between two men than between a man and a woman. … Something of the gay relationship's necessary honesty, its flexibility, and its equality could undoubtedly help strengthen and inform many heterosexual bonds.".

I read that to say "Even if we gay men do marry, it won't mean anything, because we always have a desire to look and play outside the martial bounds". But you'll probably say I'm taking that out of context....

So let's go medical. Let's look at how the Society of the Protection for Unborn Children say that Same-sex 'marriage' has negative effects and cites a lot of International research.