Reddit reviews Women Don't Ask: The High Cost of Avoiding Negotiation--and Positive Strategies for Change

When I was applying for jobs after graduate school I went to a counselor and we spent an entire hour on negotiation techniques. It cost $60 and I used what I learned to increase my starting salary from $73K to $88K, with a grade increase to boot. That was over a decade ago, so I'm at over a $150K return (not including the percentage increases during the raises) on a $60 investment. When I left that company to come to my current place of employment, I wasn't able to get them to move on salary because it was pseudo government (it was already a big jump from the previous job so I was pleased), but I was able to get a signing bonus. As an aside, one of the contributing factors to women being paid less than men is that they generally are less likely to negotiate salary.

It sounds like you should take the new position, not just for the pay but also the engagement and the long term growth potential.

It is good that you are aware that you are looking for a complete compensation package which may include vacation (more accrual or more to start), signing bonus, relocation expenses, retirement contributions, etc, in addition to the salary. Some of these may only be available to executives though. Ideally you would want treat each one of these separately; negotiate base salary, then vacation, then 401k, etc.

You're in the best possible position to negotiate because they want to hire you. The key is to be respectful but straight forward. The company almost always has room to adjust, especially if it is a big place and they have someone that they want to hire. They don't want to go to the expense of screening and interviewing more candidates, checking references, making offers, losing working getting done, etc for another few thousand a year.

I put the material from my time with the counselor here so you might want to check it out.

Edit: A couple other points.

1. These negotiations should always be done in person if you can swing it
   
   
2. The first person to mention a salary number is at a disadvantage. If they press, you can say things like "I'm sure your company has a standard salary range for this position. What is it?" or "Given the new responsibilities of this position, I don't believe that my previous salary is terribly relevant to the discussion"
   
   
3. Talk in ranges. When I was offered $73K, I responded with "I was expecting something in the low $90s". That was when he said that that type of salary would be for a level 4 and this is a level 3 position that the offered, so I countered with "then maybe I need to be a level 4"
   
   Good luck!

46% of men negotiate their salaries. 30% of women negotiate their salaries. (source: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0553383876).

That leads to a wage gap for similar work performed, in addition to the earnings gap for the reasons in the cartoon.

Yes there is. Here is a mountain of evidence:

>Women earned
less per month than men at every
degree level.

Source

>One year after graduation, a pay gap
exists between women and men who majored
in the same field. Among business majors, for
example, women earned just over $38,000, while
men earned just over $45,000.

Source

Here is a graph of virtually every job category tracked by the Bureau of Labor Statistics showing the average woman earns less than the average man.

>The Institute for Women’s Policy Research crunched government data and found that in each of the 20 most common occupations for women in 2013, women’s median weekly earnings for full-time work were less than weekly earnings for men. Within those top 20 jobs, that relationship holds true for occupations with the largest shares of women.

Source

To counter the notion that women earn less because they are ess assertive

>In a 2007 study, Babcock and her colleagues found that men are less willing to hire and less willing to work with women who “ask” because they’re seen as too demanding.

Source to quote, source to statistics

On the topic of female employees and pregnancy:

>Mothers experience disadvantages in the workplace in addition to those
commonly associated with gender. For example, two recent studies find
that employed mothers in the United States suffer a per-child wage penalty
of approximately 5%, on average

Source

However;

>Fathers, on the other hand, are likely to earn more than childless men, according to ILO – an influential 2010 report from the University of Massachusetts that it cites found fathers in the US earn 11% more than non-fathers.

Source to quote, source to statistics

>Women’s median earnings are lower than men’s in nearly all occupations, whether they work in occupations predominantly done by women, occupations predominantly done by men, or occupations with a more even mix of men and women.

Source

The book "Women Don't Ask" has been HIGHLY recommended to me re: this topic. http://www.amazon.com/Women-Dont-Ask-Negotiation-Strategies/dp/0553383876

solopcism isn't selfishness, or narcisism/ego, though it overlaps often enough. It's self involvement, a lens of peer approval, of Ethos over logos, self-pathos over delivering pathos. How does this affect my reputation, what does it make me feel vice how does this make others feel?

> "...the tendency of women to think anything being discussed is about them personally"; or, extreme preoccupation with and indulgence of one's feelings, desires, etc.; egoistic self-absorption.

Aristotle said as much in ancient greece: Woman is more compassionate than man, more easily moved to tears, at the same time is more jealous, more querulous, more apt to scold and to strike. She is, furthermore, more prone to despondency and less hopeful than the man, more void of shame or self-respect, more false of speech, more deceptive, and of more retentive memory.

and

“Women often worry more than men about the impact their actions will have on their relationships. This can prompt them to change their behavior… sometimes by asking for things indirectly, sometimes by asking for less than they really want, and sometimes by trying to be more deserving of what they want (say by working harder) so that they’ll be given what they want without asking.”

So it's not selfishness, it's self love, or self involvement. In a 10,000 foot view, you see it, even if there is variance between individuals. In OPs case, OP is talking about projection. Men assume women are the same as men, except the parts where they get it better. Thats not solopcism, thats projection. Also, most men do not view the average woman as a fat femenist. Most men view women as madonna/whore, or men with tits and more cunning. Again, pure ego and projection. Women view men more of 'how does he make me look?'

which easily shows itself as women thinking mose men are below average. Needs to be a man well above you in the SMP in order to make you look better in your peer group. Why do you think the girls in here are so adamant about getting a marriage, and not a husband? All about how it makes them look, feel, etc.

Of course, the average woman is somewhat obese (170lbs) and either a femenist, or mildly indifferent to it, while enjoying the benefits that came from it. So if you really wanted to, you could argue that men are just observant, but I won't go there

> Heck, six months ago "women have a harder time asking for raises than men" was a standard feminist position

See Babcock and Laschever, Women Don't Ask.

See also: http://www.amazon.com/Women-Dont-Ask-Negotiation---Strategies/dp/0553383876

My wife loved this book.

I have to say, the sense of obligation you have for this company that's clearly taking advantage of you (and from what you say it's the entire recording industry that's taking advantage of everyone who is so desperate to work there) is astounding to me. If they value you, they'll turn that unpaid internship into a paying job and the other offer (assuming you get it) can be a good basis for negotiating. If they threaten you and say it'll "ruin your reputation", then fuck 'em. It's not worth having a "good" reputation with them (really the only reputation you'll have is "doormat").

I'm wondering if this attitude of not demanding more from an employer is solely the culture at recording labels, or if it has to do with your being a woman. I obviously don't know anything about you in particular, but it's well known that women can be too passive with job negotiations and undervalue themselves (http://www.amazon.com/Women-Dont-Ask-Negotiation---Strategies/dp/0553383876/).

Interesting.

There is a spotlight growing on the problem of women negotiating salaries and a few books have been written on the issue but please do not mistake this as advertising, I'm just posting an example

Could this contribute to the number of minimum-wage workers? Possibly.

There are a lot of waitresses but I'm not sure how much of the minimum-wage jobs that accounts for.

Here's a very good, comprehensive study of the actual wage gap disparity done for the US Department of Labor back in 2009. It explained that the actual wage gap between genders was nearing zero when you account for different things. I'm posting it because it had an interesting data pertaining to the topic of the OP:

A greater percentage of women than men tend to work part-time. Part-time work tends to pay less than full-time work.

I'm surprised at the demographics from the article posted in the OP though.

> Esp since women that try to negotiate are statistically seen negatively and as too aggressive.

Nope, that myth has been studied and debunked. Some reading.

Actually, I was reading this book: Women Don't Ask and it explores this in detail. One of the overarching theories examined is that boys are raised with a lot more autonomy with "the world is your oyster" mentality while girls are raised with believing that ensuring everyone is happy is the most important social skill in any conflict. They cite a lot of research studies and the priming is done at a very young age for boys vs. girls.

> Because of the noisy morons who honestly think men are victims in our society. They might not be the majority, but there's enough of them to give the movement a bad name. While men do face serious issues like being practically barred from any job involving children, higher suicide rates, etc. it takes a true asshole to just flat out deny or belittle that woman face a serious wage gap, massively unreported rape statistics, dangerous street harassment and victim-blaming, etc.

Are women "victims" in our society or can they be victimized and minimized? Well, so can other groups.

Women face a self-selected wage gap. Only about 10 books on the subject.

http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2013/08/gender_pay_gap_the_familiar_line_that_women_make_77_cents_to_every_man_s.html

http://www.amazon.com/Why-Men-Earn-More-Startling-ebook/dp/B000TE6BDW/ref=sr_1_fkmr2_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1395422407&sr=8-2-fkmr2&keywords=women%27s+pay+gap

http://www.amazon.com/Women-Dont-Ask-Negotiation---Strategies/dp/0553383876/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1395422435&sr=1-1&keywords=women+negotiation

"Massively unreported rape statistics" - really? You don't think that the word "rape" being used in piles of new and novel ways weaves into this pretend narrative?

"Victim blaming" another meaningless expression that can be used equally across many groups.

"Dangerous street harassment"? I don't remember one MRA discussion in our clubhouse that discussed this. It may have come after beard time or before we had to take out the trash for Mom, I can't remember.