Best christian spiritual growth books according to redditors
We found 944 Reddit comments discussing the best christian spiritual growth books. We ranked the 363 resulting products by number of redditors who mentioned them. Here are the top 20.
We found 944 Reddit comments discussing the best christian spiritual growth books. We ranked the 363 resulting products by number of redditors who mentioned them. Here are the top 20.
There is a person in the Bible who says to Jesus, "I believe. Help my unbelief!" (you can find that story and the context of the phrase in Mark chapter 9). I always thought that was a profound sentiment, and it's a phrase I think about whenever I experience doubts.
I would say that most or all Catholics probably experience doubts about the faith at some point in their lives. I wouldn't let concerns about whether you could believe in God hold you back from Catholicism if you really thought you wanted to join the Church.
There is a somewhat famous Catholic, Blaise Pascal, who even said that unbelievers should basically "fake it till they make it"; they should basically try living as a faithful Catholic and see what it does to them and their thoughts. He thought that if someone regularly went to Church and tried praying to God, that they might start to feel a connection with God, and that would make it easier to believe, and that they might actually start believing it all. After all, why should we expect someone to believe in God and find it convincing if they never give it a shot? The only other way to acquire any amount of belief at all, that I can think of, would be through some kind of convincing argument.
I think that idea from Pascal makes sense. If God really does exist, then it would make sense that trying to reach out to God in some way would probably do something. God has not promised everyone a miraculous sign or proof of His existence, but you also never know how God will choose to react to people's prayers and inquiries. All you can do is try and not expect too much since we know that even for the best Catholic saints in history, a lot of them only got vague visions at best (edit: after thinking about this more, I realize in the bible it does say to pray expectantly. so maybe "don't expect much" is wrong, too. i still need to understand all this stuff better myself, it seems). I am Catholic and I can say I've never even experienced anything like that. I pretty much believe because I have studied some Catholic apologetics and I was convinced by the arguments, but also because I was raised Catholic and I have practiced the religion for a while now, and I have sometimes felt a connection to God in a kind of esoteric or abstract way. I think more proof about this stuff would be great. But we are not entitled to proof.
Maybe apologetics would help you to believe. Since you studied science, maybe those kinds of logical arguments would help you. There are plenty of options. One option that comes to my mind is this book by Ed Feser. I know a lot of people here like Peter Kreeft; I did a quick search on Amazon and found this book by him. I know Kreeft has talked about the beauty of Catholicism before so maybe his writings will appeal to you. Some other names you could look into would be C. S. Lewis and G. K. Chesterton.
I actually fell away from Catholicism for a bit in my college days, and came back through Protestantism and some Protestant philosophers. I was very influenced by William Lane Craig, who has a lot of great apologetics works. You could check out writings and podcasts on his website or one of these two books: 1, 2.
I probably don't have any good advice to offer about the situation with your boyfriend. I have very little relationship experience myself. Maybe if one day you do really get into Catholicism, and learn more about it, you could debate theology with him and see if you can convert him. I think that Church history is a good way to try to convert people. In my experience, a lot of Protestants never even think about the fact that the Catholic Church claims to be the Church established by Christ, and that the Bishops today have been ordained by previous Bishops, going all the way back to the original disciples of Christ through a process known as Apostolic Succession. In addition to stuff like that, there is also the fact that the transubstantiation of the Eucharist is a concept that existed in the very early Church as well, and the Catholic Church is the only Christian Church which has preserved this tradition.
I ended up writing a novel too. Anyway, good luck to you. Feel free to reply and ask questions if you want any more info from me. I was happy to read your story.
> I want to start going again, but dealing with his anti Catholicism and New Atheist Facebook posts, etc as a practicing Catholic just sounds emotionally exhausting. Plus I'd have to attend church alone with our toddler, who tries to make a break for the altar every time she's set loose.
Going to mass without your husband is better than not going at all. Moreover, other people should not inhibit your ability to practice the Faith. Concerning the New Atheist Facebook posts, if your husband finds that kind of material even remotely convincing, I would recommend he read Edward Feser's The Last Superstition: A Refutation of the New Atheism.
> Then I start wondering what the point even is because she will probably just end up being an atheist because of his example.
Set a better example than your husband and make an effort to show your child that there are good reasons to be a Catholic. Read and study apologetic books like William Lane Craig's On Guard and/or Trent Horn's Why We're Catholic: Our Reasons for Faith, Hope, and Love so that you are better equipped to defend the Faith. When your daughter is old enough, she can read these books and other apologetics books for herself. Also, it wouldn't be a bad idea for your husband to read these same books. Although, William Lane Craig's On Guard for Students was written specifically for non-Christians; so it might be a better option than On Guard, which is intended for Christians.
> You can only pray for the same thing over and over so many times with no change before it starts feeling hopeless.
Keep praying. If you are not already doing so, pray the Rosary. Even if God is not granting you the request(s) made in your prayers, know that there is a good reason for doing so. The reason(s) may never be known during your time on earth, but do not allow this to damage your relationship with God.
> The prospect of returning just feels so lonely. Our parish is huge and no one ever says a word to me. Does anyone have any advice or encouragement?
Many parishes have bible studies or meetups of some kind that would give you the opportunity to meet other Catholics. It is better to feel lonely and do what is right than not feel lonely and fail to do what is right.
Nice idea, but Christ was a real person, documented in both religious and secular documents.
What follows is not meant to be disrespectful, but I think you are missing the entire point of what the Christian Faith is.
You cannot overlook the evidence.
Chris was actually killed and rose from the dead seen by over 500 witnesses
If you look at the evidence and decide that it is worth looking at what Jesus actually stood for.
There are actually over 300 "Q Type" prophecies in the old testament, that are all fufilled in a single man, Jesus Christ. These are prophecies that took place over 400 years before he came.
If nothing else, take a look at the evidence in light of "Q type" prophecy.
Two good books are
The case for Christ
https://www.amazon.com/dp/0310345863?aaxitk=9l74.ycRWveaIQm-t.ZSYw&pd_rd_i=0310345863&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_p=3534726502&pd_rd_wg=81HhE&pf_rd_r=7FYJ4V7SAWEVC6JM4FA7&pf_rd_s=desktop-sx-top-slot&pf_rd_t=301&pd_rd_w=eRa1R&pf_rd_i=the+case+for+christ&pd_rd_r=ff665252-4ebd-4d59-b4cf-4d52f112cbe2&hsa_cr_id=7480256250101
Evidence that demands a verdict.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/1401676707?aaxitk=BXAaSaaijsgYqtj3gEbPXw&pd_rd_i=1401676707&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_p=3534726502&pd_rd_wg=jYd2I&pf_rd_r=93P85JRNR7JSJ5EMWG2M&pf_rd_s=desktop-sx-top-slot&pf_rd_t=301&pd_rd_w=7nLcY&pf_rd_i=Evidence+that+demands+a+verdict&pd_rd_r=e38ece30-f389-4c68-8dcb-ff7abce12a76&hsa_cr_id=5187726210201
As far as your math equation of "we do this and we get that. The bible teaches that salvation is a GIFT' and you cannot do anything to earn it. You could argue that you have to believe, and that is correct, but that is all you can do. In fact the teachings of the bible tell warn against trying to get back
into that mindset.
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
I am not one to argue that you need to believe the way I believe, but I do see that you are teaching (maybe a strong word) something very different than that the documents that uphold the entire christian faith represent.
Christ also taught us that this world is not our world.
He also taught us that our struggles are not flesh and blood but really against good and evil. (That is what we are seeing)
For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.
The real gospel is very simple and it is a secret.
We are all sinners (everyone)
The penalty for sin is death.
Christ died once for all
He rose again defeating death
He sent his Holy Spirit here to help us
He does not force himself on anyone.
It is impossible to believe in Him without faith. You can argue facts until you are blue in the face, but you will never be able to prove it. Plenty of circumstantial evidence though.
No Man is an Island By Thomas Merton
Clowning in Rome By Henri Nouwen.
The Great Divorce By C.S. Lewis
Beginning to Pray By Archbishop Anthony Bloom
For the Life of the World By Fr Alexander Schmemann
Christ the Conqueror of Hell By Archbishop Hilarion Alfeyev
Christ the Eternal Tao By Hieromonk Damascene
The Way of the Pilgrim
Marriage as a Path to Holiness-Lives of Married Saints By David and Mary Ford
On the Incarnation By St Athanasius
On Social Justice By St Basil the Great
The Ladder of Divine Ascent By St John Climacus
I'm currently trying to finish Fr Seraphim Rose- His Life and Works for the third time and despite my apparent inability to complete it, I really do enjoy it.
Check out books by Robert Webber such as Evangelicals On the Canterbury Trail and Signs of Wonder an others of his.
Read Thomas Howard's Evangelical Is Not Enough about a BRILLIANT scholar (and C.S. Lewis expert) who came from a fundamentalist Evangelical heritage and made his way into the Anglican and eventually Roman churches.
Peter Gilquist's Becoming Orthodox is about a group of Campus Crusade For Christ Evangelicals who ended up on a journey to Eastern Orthodoxy.
Finally (but in order of importance first), get yourself a copy of The Apostolic Fathers and read the letters written by three men trained and ordained by the Apostles: Ignatius, Polycarp, and Clement. What they have to say is mind blowing. There are a BUNCH of different editions available on Amazon.
I actually just had this discussion last week. If you're at all interested I recommend that you go check it out.
Here's the first post:
>No, it's because this question has been asked so many times before. A standard Catholic answer would be the following:
>God is not the one who punishes. God predestines each of us to heaven and does whatever is in his power (thereby investing himself in us) to enable us to reach this state of divinity in which our humanity is fulfilled.
>One of the central Christian theses is the dogma that ὁ θεὸς ἀγάπη ἐστίν, that God is love. Heaven is completed union with God, which is to say, the state in which one's being is overwhelmed by the pouring out of love and the receiving of love. This is what we are all predestined towards, but it must also be remembered that love must be a free choice: in order to love it must also be possible not to love, and those who choose not to love exclude themselves from the possibility of attaining union with God.
>Hell in our conception is thus not a creation of God but rather the necessary consequence of the free choice not to love. Those who live without love create their own hell within themselves.
>If you have any further interest in the subject I would recommend reading C.S. Lewis' The Great Divorce.
I hope this helps.
edit: spelling
The Catholic Church teaches that all religions have some level of Truth to them (capital T). God reveals himself to different peoples in different ways, the Catholics just think they're "more right" than the rest.
Denominations that say that could be right, they could be wrong. In the end, everyone has to decide their own way.
Personally, my view on heaven and hell are pretty close to what C.S. Lewis wrote in The Great Divorce - Christian, Muslim, Atheist, whatever - all people choose where they will wind up, either with God or apart from Him. Since God is love, then being apart from him for all eternity would be hell. Each person must choose, and if you choose not to believe, well, why would you want to spend eternity with something you don't believe exists?
Welcome! I appreciate your genuine curiosity to learn more about Catholicism from Catholics.
I would recommend Crossing the Tiber by Steve Ray. Steve has a Baptist background as well and wrote that book to explain why he was converting to Catholicism. I really enjoyed it and it combines Scripture and Early Christian's writings to support his reasons.
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God bless!
Personally, I think there's a lot of garbage, namby-pamby advice in this thread.
As Venerable Fulton Sheen said, "There are not over a hundred people in the United States who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions, however, who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church — which is, of course, quite a different thing."
If you believe the Catholic Faith is true, then presumably your end goal is their conversion. If it's not, it should be.
Perhaps the initial explanation won't go well. That's fine. Whatever happens, don't burn any bridges. Unfortunately, since it's today there's not much more prep you can do.
The best advice I can give is to come armed with what they think they know. Beyond the initial, emotional reaction, they will have arguments. Maybe not today, but they'll come. They already know what they're going to say. They already have their "Catholicism is the Whore of Babylon Talking Points" on a 3x5 index card (even if it's just a mental index card.) So what do you do? Surprise them. Steal their lines. Ask questions that they aren't expecting. Since you already know all of the anti-Catholic talking points, you are (hopefully) well prepared to counter them with clarity and charity, using Holy Scripture as your guide.
Also, remember you're not alone in this. LOTS of fantastic people have made this conversion. Here are a few book recs that are relevant.
Catholicism and Fundamentalism
Rome Sweet Home
Born Fundamentalist, Born Again Catholic
Crossing the Tiber: Evangelical Protestants Discover the Historical Church
I haven't read this one yet, but it also looks awesome. Dr. Brant Pitre also writes on this topic:
The Fourth Cup: Unveiling the Mystery of the Last Supper and the Cross
> What is the biblical teaching of hell?
There are at least three main views that Christians hold, "eternal torment", "annihilation", and/or "universal reconciliation".
Those three ideas are portrayed in this image.
For more detail, you can read this book by Steve Gregg which gives the verses and arguments for and against each of those views.
> ... if "hell" is merely annihilation?
I hold the "annihilationism" position, and I believe that each person who is sent to the lake of fire experiences a punishment of finite duration/intensity which is in proportion to that person's sins during his life. The person receives that punishment in the process of, or preceding, his annihilation. It is wise to ask God for mercy and to avoid that unpleasant punishment time.
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> Why would someone become a Christian if not to escape judgment?
My definition of 'a Christian' is 'a disciple of Jesus'. A man may want to become one of His disciples because he thinks that Jesus is a great teacher, and that Jesus has full knowledge about how a man may live rightly.
A man may also want to participate in the growth of the kingdom of God which Jesus preached about, and may want to serve God and participate in His project of bringing people into right relationship with Him.
How to Think About God: A guide for the 20th Century Pagan
Ritual and Religion in the Making of Humanity
Why God Won't Go Away: Brain Science and the Biology of Belief
Biblical Games: Game Theory and the Hebrew Bible
The Probability of God: A Simple Calculation That Proves the Ultimate Truth
The Abolition of Man
Meeting Jesus Again for the First Time: The Historical Jesus and the Heart of Contemporary Faith
Reading the Bible Again For the First Time: Taking the Bible Seriously But Not Literally
An introduction to Christian doctrine and what Christians believe is completely different than an introduction to the Bible.
For a free, online, scholarly introduction to the Bible I suggest OpenYale's courses on the New Testament and Hebrew Scriptures available here. Both Christine Hayes and Dale B. Martin are excellent. Biblical Literacy by Timothy Beal is an excellent accessible and mostly moderate[1] introduction to the the Bible for someone who's never read it before.
As far as both doctrine and the basis for doctrine go, that'll differ drastically from denomination to denomination. Most Protestant denominations claim that they believe in "sola scriptura" or "scripture alone", but perhaps the biggest blow to this statement may be the fact that you can't read the Bible and instantly divine everything there is to know about Protestants. Understanding the history of Protestantism is necessary. Even within the realm of Protestantism you'll find a diverse spectrum of beliefs. I personally have more in common theologically with some Muslims than I do with fundamentalist Protestant Christians.
Catholic and Orthodox traditions both explicitly state the importance of the church and church tradition, and so simply "understanding the Bible" won't get you very far there.
I'm tempted to offer Simply Christian: Why Christianity Makes Sense by N.T. Wright or the famous Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis, but I cannot overstate the fact that even given their wide acceptance among the vast spectrum of Christian traditions, they are speaking out of a very particular perspective (they're both Anglican). A fair question, asked by Lamin Sanneh, is, "Whose religion is Christianity?" There are completely separate articulations of Christianity that have nothing to do with the Western culture it is so much associated with today. In his book he explores Christianity beyond the west. C.S. Song's book Jesus, the Crucified People: The Cross in the Lotus World covers specifically ways in which Christianity has risen across Asia.
I've got to run, but last I want to suggest Houston Smith's The World's Religions. He does a great job of highlighting the best of each of the world's major religious traditions.
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[1] When people say "moderate" they don't mean "I believe in it moderately" but rather "In the spectrum from conservative to liberal interpretations of the Bible I fall somewhere in the middle".
Hello mrZNS. This is one of those great examples of Biblical diversity. One of the reasons this troubles you, probably, is that you've likely been taught to think of the Bible with a certain set of assumptions - those assumptions being that you can take little pieces of the Bible out of context (not only out of the context of the passage, but of the context of the entire Bible, as well as out of the "historical context" - the culture in which it was originally written) and then use them like a gavel - slamming them down in order to shut down conversation and win points. But the Bible is actually extremely diverse in its voices, as you might notice when you point passages like this (and Genesis 6:6, Jonah 3:10, and the scene where Abraham argues with God about destroying Sodom and Gomorrah even) towards passages that disagree, like Malachi 3:6, Numbers 23:19, and James 1:17.
It is problems like this that are one of the reasons I refuse to use the word "inerrant" anymore, but instead I use the word "infallible". It is important to note that the word "inerrant" or anything like it is never used within the Bible to describe itself - but rather, the Bible tells us that it is useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, and that it equips us for good works (2 Tim. 3:16-17).
If you'd like to read more about this other way of thinking about the Bible, I've written some things - here, here, and here. I'd also highly recommend the following books:
The Bible Tells Me So: Why Defending Scripture Has Made Us Unable to Read It - this is a very easy read from one of my favorite scholars, Peter Enns. A more scholarly version of this book (with perhaps more details) is another by the same author:
Inspiration and Incarnation: Evangelicals and the Problem of the Old Testament
Also a great book by the same author:
The Evolution of Adam, What the Bible Does and Doesn't Say about Human Origins
Other similar books by different authors:
The Lost World of Scripture: Ancient Literary Culture and Biblical Authority - this one has more to do with how we came to have the collection of scriptures (namely, that our imagining of someone called an author of each book sitting down and writing the whole thing is not really how it would have happened).
This one is perhaps the most difficult to read, as it is the longest and has the most details:
God's Word in Human Words: An Evangelical Appropriation of Critical Biblical Scholarship
Probably the best resource I know on this from a Reformed perspective is Donald Whitney's Spiritual Disciplines for the Christian Life. This is a fantastic resource on spiritual disciplines and practice.
New Evidence that Demands a Verdict
More Than a Carpenter
Cold Case Christianity: A Homicide Detective Investigates the Claims of the Gospels On my to read list.
Faith on Trial: An Attorney Analyzes the Evidence for the Death and Resurrection of Jesus
The Case for Christ
The Case for Faith
The Case for a Creator
The Case for the Resurrection of Jesus On my to read list.
The Historical Jesus: Ancient Evidence for the Life of Christ On my to read list.
Besides the apologetics books, you can watch John Lennox on YouTube. He is a very well-spoken and kind (doesn't attack the other debater) debater. Very well thought out responses. The Dawkins vs Lennox debate was awesome! Ditto Gary Habermas as well.
Honestly, C.S. Lewis does a really great job of answering your question, via fictional narrative, in The Great Divorce.
It's a super short, very entertaining read that is probably communicated much more elegantly than anything you will get here. Seriously, I'm a very lazy reader, and I finished the thing in two sittings, no problem.
Edit: fixed the link!
On this sub yes. There is a book titled like that written by former evangelical 18 years ago .
http://www.amazon.com/Crossing-Tiber-Evangelical-Protestants-Historical/dp/0898705770
I have a couple of things to say. Nothing philosophical, really—you've looked at the philosophical disputes already, and ultimately I think what you need to make up your mind is time, contemplation, and journeying. Don't think this is something that you need to determine instantly; if there is a God (as, I think, the best evidence indicates there is), then he must be compassionate and certainly is not displeased by someone who deliberately takes the time to figure things out and pursue truth with an open heart.
You're 17. Do you have any plans to go to college? If so, do the institutions you're looking at offer any philosophy of religion courses? Self-study is great, but sometimes coming at an issue in an explicitly academic context helps people really determine and refine what they think.
I, for one, cannot imagine the God in whom I believe sending such a sincere seeker of the truth to hell. Christians believe that God is love, that love is God's very essence (and indeed, if they are correct, the philosophical arguments over at /r/ThroughAGlassDarkly should establish that one of God's characteristics is being all-loving). If you have the time, I'd recommend picking up the book The Great Divorce by C.S. Lewis, a marvelous exposition into contemporary Christian thought regarding heaven and hell. In short, heaven is the condition of living in love, and hell is the condition of living without love—those who live in love presently on earth are already in an 'anticipated heaven,' as it were, while those who have surrendered to their own selfishness have already descended into a hell of their own making, a prison of their own subjectivity. I can't say for sure, obviously, but from this and other posts you don't strike me as someone whose concern for the satiation of subjective urges outweighs the longing for objective truth.
God is just, loving, and merciful. If you love others and act according to your conscience, I don't think you have reason to fear. Yet by no means cease from exploring. Read widely. If you're at all interested in Christianity I would recommend picking up C.S. Lewis' Mere Christianity, any popular-level work by N. T. Wright, and perhaps Ratzinger's God and the World or any papal encyclical issued since 2005. If for now you're just trying to wrap your head around the question of whether God exists, I would suggest that you continue to study independently, and plunge headfirst into life, being open to ideas, to people, to new experiences. The reality of God is apprehended not just in philosophical argumentation but also experientially; if in your journeying it becomes evident to you that there is something more, something greater than the hum-drum of everyday life or the experience of material satisfaction and transient happiness, then perhaps you will understand that God is out there, and that he loves you.
You are not alone, friend. Here are some resources that helped me when I faced a similar set of problems:
The Bible Tells Me So, by Peter Enns
Inspired, by Rachel Held Evans
The Bible Project, for general Bible stuff
The Naked Bible Podcast: Leviticus Intro, for those difficult Leviticus passages
i've been there friend.
two things really helped me.
this book is short and enjoyable, and gives a great approach for these kinds of conversations - https://www.amazon.com/Tactics-Game-Discussing-Christian-Convictions/dp/0310282926
watching ray comfort's witnessing videos has helped me as well
here's one, but just search ray comfort on youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cqxu0IF-O5o
Check out the writings of the Trappist monk Thomas Merton if you haven't yet. Thich Nhat Hanh called him a living Buddha.
This is a very accessible introduction to Christian mysticism.
If you want to read more, I've heard good things about Christ the Eternal Tao written by an Eastern Orthodox priest-monk.
The Divine Conspiracy by Dallas Willard
Reading the Bible Again for the First Time by Marcus Borg
Mere Christianity by CS Lewis
The Meaning of Jesus by NT Wright and Marcus Borg
The Power of Now by Eckhart Tolle
New Seeds of Contemplation by Thomas Merton
A Lever and a Place to Stand by Richard Rohr
It seems like a lot of these are universal in new/immature believers and believers who base everything on their emotion and the spiritual “high” that you can sometimes get.
I used to be very much like this a few years ago... I would attend every service and conference, but would come away feeling nothing more than guilty and unfulfilled. A lot of it has settled out in me simply as a factor of age, but a lot of it was also a conscious effort. I read the Screwtape Letters, and one quote stuck out to me about how all human life is lived in oscillations or fluctuations. I realized that my life was a recognizable pattern of ups and downs, ups and downs. I sought God differently in different emotions and circumstances.
And that’s when I found out about theSpiritual Disciplines. The basic premise is that God uses three main catalysts to change our hearts and sanctify us: other people, life circumstances, and the spiritual disciplines (actions we can take to experience God more fully, like Bible intake, prayer, or worship.... I’ve heard of a subset called the means of grace, which are commanded for all believers and are sufficient for receiving God’s grace).
When I lived the way you described, I was letting circumstances and the people around me be the main catalysts in my life for obedience and sanctification. And while I was saved, it was a tempestuous place to be. Now, my goal is to actively choose to seek God with the same passion and the same diligence, no matter my circumstances or the people around me. I’m still not there yet, but my faith is more my own than ever before.
I admire the way you're going about this! It's really wonderful to see people critically exploring belief systems. As a Christian, I have admittedly not done as much research on other faiths as I can, but I have enjoyed learning what I have. It's really incredible to see the similarities and nuances among them!
So to the point, I believe that the Christian Gospel is so simplistic and selfless that no human or demon could have imagined it.
That a perfect being was born as a human, exposed to diseases and hard labor, and endured the full human experience is absolutely mind-blowing to me. He didn't just walk among us and laugh and be divine; he wept and felt pain with us. The death he suffered was completely selfless and was entirely for us. It's beautiful and simple.
I'm sure other Christians can explain this far better than I. I'm still learning my own faith, so I'd love to hear what others have to say, too.
As far as reading material, More Than a Carpenter is great. It's only about 100 pages, but it packs a punch and is one of the go-to Christian 101 type books.
Celebration of Discipline is kind of a landmark classic.
I am impressed with your serious and thoughtful approach to all of this. You've been through a lot, and I hope you continue to find your way forward.
Two books I would recommend: One is Jennifer Grace Bird's Permission Granted: Taking the Bible Intro Your Own Hands, and another is Peter Enns' The Bible Tells Me So: How Defending Scripture Has Made Us Unable to Read It.
From slightly different perspectives (Enns is more evangelical in his background and approach), they show how critical readings of the Bible can foster serious and faithful engagement with Scripture, and how the rigid and abusive interpretations of fundamentalists are often rooted more in their own agendas than in the text itself. You can certainly find a middle way through all of this. Good luck and/or many blessings!
Dietrich Bonhoeffer - The Cost of Discipleship
EDIT: Just saw that someone else already said this. I won't change mine though because it's a great book.
The Cost of Discipleship
First of all, welcome back, brother. I am especially touched that your fiancée would even suggest to find a Catholic Church. (As an aside, you're not a convert; you're a revert since you're already baptized into the Church. I thought maybe you'd appreciate that factoid.)
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>I am looking for information about your Church, whatever you think is important to know.
There is a lot to know and many here would recommend a million and one things to study, especially since it sounds like you enjoy a good intellectual pursuit. I'm not going to discount others' recommendations, but I do want to highlight one thing: learn more about Jesus first. Find out what He taught, who He is, what His disciples and closest friends said about Him, what the Old Testament said about Him, etc. To that end...
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>I am looking for recommendations for a Catholic-approved version of the Bible, geared towards someone who appreciates philosophy and prefers something close to the original translations, or the most accepted by the Church.
First thing to note, all Catholic Bibles have 72 books. Protestants have 66. If you can't get a hold of a Catholic Bible, a Protestant one will do for now until you do get around to buying a Catholic one. Now, as for Catholic Bibles, if you speak/read Latin you can't go wrong with the Vulgate Bible. It's a Bible that was translated by St. Jerome who was fluent in Hebrew, Greek, and Latin; he had the original manuscripts -- some of which are lost to us today -- so his translations are widely accepted as authentic and faithful.
There's also the English version of the Vulgate Bible known as the Douay-Rheims. It's an almost word-for-word translation of the Latin so the English will sound archaic to our modern ears. It's not as frustrating as, say, reading Shakespeare but it's pretty close. I personally prefer (and currently use) a Douay-Rheims Bible that has the Clementina Vulgata beside it. It's essentially Latin and English side by side. You can find one here.
If want one with plain English, the New American Bible Revised Edition would suffice. (If you use this website, let me know. I have a discount code from my last purchase.)
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>I know nothing of the culture or norms of the Church, or what to expect as a new member.
One major rule to remember is that you can't receive Holy Communion until after you've gone to Confession. Given your situation, I would recommend setting up an appointment with a parish priest so he can give his full attention to you and your needs.
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>I do not know how to introduce myself to the congregation
There's usually no need to introduce yourself to the congregation since parishes tend to be big. If you would like to formally introduce yourself, however, give the parish priest a call and set up a meeting with him. It would also be a great chance to speak with him about your situation and get some pastoral guidance.
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>or tell a good Catholic church from a lesser one
Many here would recommend a more traditional parish. If that's not available, I'd say any Catholic church would do. If you're unsure about a particular church's standing, just give us the details on this sub. I'm sure someone here would be able to double check for you.
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>I know nothing of the Saints or the miracles, or what has been confirmed by the Church and what hasn't.
These are things you can learn later on. Focus on Jesus first. Rebuild your relationship with Him. Start with the basics; if you don't, you might burn yourself out. There is A LOT to learn about the Faith. Some say it's a lifelong endeavour. :P
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>I am also looking for a reading list to explore Catholic philosophy beyond those you typically encounter in standard philosophical reading, such as Aquinas or Pascal.
Hmmm... this depends on what sorts of things interest you. A good one that lightly touches on philosophy is Socrates Meets Jesus by Peter Kreeft (anything by this guy is pretty good, by the way).
A book that may be more pressing to your current situation is Why Be Catholic? by Patrick Madrid and Abraham Skorka, Why We're Catholic by Trent Horn, as well as Why I am a Catholic by Brandon Vogt. (They might need to work on a more original title, though :P) Since you have an Evangelical background, Crossing the Tiber by Steve Ray might be helpful (although it can be a bit dry; also, it mostly deals with the Church's teaching on Baptism and the Eucharist) as well as Rome Sweet Home by Scott and Kimberly Hahn.
You can never go wrong with classics such as a collection of C. S. Lewis' works, The Divine Comedy by Dante Alighieri, The Seven Story Mountain by Thomas Merton, and Confessions by St. Augustine.
If you want a historical examination of Jesus and the Early Church, a good place to start is The Case for Christ by Brant Pitre, The History of the Church: From Christ to Constantine by St. Eusebius, and The Fathers Know Best by Jimmy Akin. I'd like to thrown in Jesus, Peter, and the Keys by Scott Butler, Norman Dahlgren, and David J. Hess. This last one pertains to the Catholic claim regarding the papacy (and which I think is one of the strongest arguments in favour of the Catholic Church being the original one that the Lord founded).
Finally, there are YouTube channels you can follow/binge watch such as Bishop Robert Barron and Ascension Presents. Also, an amazing video about the Catholic Faith is a series made by Bishop Barron when he was "just" a priest called Catholicism.
I'm sorry if that's overwhelming but you raised some good questions. :P Anyway, I imagine it may be a lot right now so take it slowly, don't dive in through all of it at once. Find a local Catholic church, call up the priest, set up a meeting, then take it from there. And remember, you can always pray; God's always willing to talk with you.
I've read two books which were recommended to me by this subreddit.
The first book I read was The Great Divorce by C.S. Lewis. I was already a Lewis fan, but I had ignored this book. It is now by and far in my top 3 books, and it's still an emotional roller-coaster just thinking about it. That man had an absurd talent for offering theological insight through allegory. I was able to read it in two sittings.
The other book was Surprised by Hope by N.T. Wright. On top of me enjoying his insight, this book really cleaned up what I thought about death and the Christian afterlife, pre and post-resurrection. It was the theological insight I needed the hear on the topic, and it was very impactful on me.
Both are solid reads, and I'd recommend them to anyone.
At the risk of blogspamming :-) here's an article I wrote about it: The River of God
It may not be THE Orthodox view, but it's one that's been taught pretty consistently across the Orthodox world for a very long time.
Bottom line: The fire-and-brimstone, Your Day In Court imagery is mostly metaphor; that's why no two Judgment Day accounts seem to quite match up. Take metaphors and imagery too literally and you end up with silly scenarios, as the atheists love to point out. That doesn't mean we can ignore the metaphors, though: The language Christ uses about gehenna and John's references to the Lake of Fire point to something sobering and real that we need to avoid.
C.S. Lewis wrote an excellent story called The Great Divorce that eloquently describes a very Orthodox understanding of hell. Unlike Orthodox writers, though, he's not longwinded about it. :-\
Join a Christian community and read the Bible. You do not need to read the Bible from beginning to end, it's okay to start in the middle because the Bible is an anthology. Most Christians recommend starting at the Gospels in the New Testament because those witness to the significance of Jesus' identity. The Bible is best read with others, in conversation and community.
Oh yeah, and Jesus. If there is anything at the center of Christianity, it is that Jesus shows us what God is like. We believe God's character is marked by a terribly deep and unfathomable love. Christians believe that God wishes to transform the world and human relationships through Jesus' life, death, and resurrection.
Two accessible introductions to Christianity I really enjoy are by Rowan Williams: Being Christian and Tokens of Trust. The first book introduces Christianity through four key practices of Christians, and the second book introduces Christianity through an popular statement of belief called the Apostles' Creed. So I think they're complementary because one focuses on practices and the other focuses on beliefs.
John Stott's Basic Christianity and NT Wright's Simply Christian are also very good.
Sorry that I'm throwing a billion books at you. Best of luck in this journey.
Peter Enns wrote a book about this: The Bible Tells Me So: Why Defending Scripture Has Made Us Unable to Read It
Don't leave us!!!!!!
The Roman Catholic Catechism is a great tool to understand Catholic beliefs.
Return to Rome is a book about someone who came from being a Protestant to being a Catholic.
The Orthodox Way is a good intro to Orthodox understanding.
Becoming Orthodox is a book about a ton of Protestants converting to Orthodoxy.
Recent (this Pascha) Protestant convert here. I can attempt to answer each of your questions, though my answers about more complex issues of doctrine/Catholicism will probably be worse than those about contrasts with Protestantism.
a)
> lack of evangelism/out-reach within the Orthodox church
The Evangelical type of outreach is definitely lacking, in terms of going door to door, consciously trying to evangelize acquaintances, tracts, etc. Since becoming Orthodox I've come to see this as largely a good thing, but that's my opinion, so let me focus on the outreach that the Orthodox actually do.
There are still Orthodox missions throughout the world, youth groups still go on trips to Mexican orphanages like my Protestant YA group back in California, etc. Orthodox laity tend to focus more on personal/family spiritual growth, but don't take that to mean that there are no opportunities for evangelism if you are so called.
Keep in mind two related issues as well. First, the Orthodox church in America is small and has less resources to leverage than America's Protestant denominations. Also, it has a rich tradition of monasticism which the Protestant tradition tends to lack and which fills in some gaps you might observe "in church".
b)
> some congregations felt more like ethnic clubs
I was extremely blessed to find a parish full of converts. More ethnic congregations certainly exist, but largely this seems to be a myth/outdated truth about Orthodoxy. My own experience would indicate that the Greeks/Russians tend to have strong friendships with one another and language/culture barriers which can make it difficult to form relationships. That said, the times where that extends to hostility to outsiders is rare, in my experience.
The parish I'm at is Antiochian. If you can find a similar church near you, you may find a surprising number of converts as well!
This is definitely a question that someone more knowledgeable can elaborate on!
Or, as my priest likes to say: The Orthodox are maximalists, not minimalists. We are not so concerned with what we must do to be saved but what we can do to live as if we are in the Kingdom of Heaven now.
Hope that's helpful! I don't know based on your post whether you've attended any services, so I'll exhort you to as if you have not. Orthodoxy isn't "real" until it's lived, and you can't live Orthodoxy outside the liturgy. The beauty of the services was the first step in my conversion, and I think everyone considering the Church for its theology should also visit a parish and let their whole person experience Orthodoxy before making up their mind.
EDIT: Skimmed your previous posts. No idea where you are physically, but on the off chance you're in the Salt Lake City area, I'd love to meet you in person as the journey from Protestantism to Orthodoxy is near and dear to me. In either case, if you ever want to know more about my conversion experience don't hesitate to reach out on Reddit or elsewhere.
TL;DR Wall of text has my rough thoughts. I highly recommend Becoming Orthodox; It's where my deeper exploration started.
Maybe you can start with Peter Enns, a Christian professor explaining why Biblical Inerrancy is, well, an errant idea in "The Bible Tells Me So - Why defending scripture has made us unable to read it."
https://www.amazon.com/Bible-Tells-Me-Defending-Scripture-ebook/dp/B00H7LXHJQ
Then, going and reading mainstream biblical scholarship is both enlightening and fascinating - such as Richard Friedman's "Who Wrote the Bible".
https://www.amazon.com/Wrote-Bible-Richard-Elliott-Friedman/dp/0060630353
Hello,
This book is a robust examination of the Christian faith, looking not only at doctrine but the evidence for the truth claims of scripture.
https://www.amazon.com/Cold-Case-Christianity-Homicide-Detective-Investigates/dp/1434704696
I greatly respect your attitude towards your husbands faith. The fact that you're here asking this speaks volumes.
edit: bonus recommdations
https://www.amazon.com/More-Than-Carpenter-Josh-McDowell/dp/1414326270/ref=asap_bc?ie=UTF8
https://www.amazon.com/New-Evidence-That-Demands-Verdict/dp/0785242198/ref=asap_bc?ie=UTF8
In the same vein, check out The Holiness of God.
Also, recently coming to terms with the sovereignty of God leads me to believe that you haven't read much Piper. John Piper is one of the greatest Bible teachers alive. His book Desiring God changed my life. Please read it.
Also, Desiring God's website is worth checking every day. Always edifying, soul-nurturing, God-glorifying stuff.
A really excellent book on the topic of spiritual disciplines is Spiritual Disciplines for the Christian Life by Donald Whitney. He has helpful chapters on Bible reading (or Bible intake, as he calls it) and many other topics. He's very readable and down-to-earth, and has encouragement for everyone whether you've been reading the Bible for ten days or ten decades.
I Don't Have Enough Faith to be an Atheist by Turek and Geisler
Stealing from God by Frank Turek
Tactics by Greg Koukl
The Emmaus Code by David Limbaugh
You may not know at all what he's going to ask until he asks it. Best you can do is be prepared for anything 1 Pet. 3:15, be gentle, be loving, be understanding, be very aware that what he's going though is different than you and that you may not (in his mind) have the right to talk to him about grief and loss, much less God.
If you haven't already, grab a copy of Tactics, it a great nuts-and-bolts book.
This. Also, if you want a kick in the pants (re: laziness), pick up a copy of Bonhoeffer's Cost of Discipleship.
It's not dangerous per se, but merely understand that it is quite untrue. Yes, there are bound to be some truths somewhere in it, but reading untruth to understand truth is tricky.
If I were in your shoes, I'd study the Trinity. According to John Frame, that's the basis for understanding the consciousness.
Here's one article written to discuss some of his thoughts on this:
http://www.proginosko.com/docs/Frame_Festschrift_Essay.pdf
Read John Frame on epistemology and Michael Reeves Delighting in the Trinity https://www.amazon.com/Delighting-Trinity-Introduction-Christian-Faith/dp/0830839836/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1499447945&sr=1-1&keywords=michael+trinity and you'll make significant progress in your search, I think.
I think the Trinity explains everything.
i found this book to be helpful
Since you are coming from a Baptist background, I'd suggest Crossing the Tiber: https://www.amazon.com/Crossing-Tiber-Evangelical-Protestants-Historical/dp/0898705770
I was in youth ministry for 25 years, and take it from me: there is no other book that will serve you in greater stead than the Word of God. Psalm 119 says, How can a young man keep his way pure? By living according to Your Word. Your Word I have hidden in my heart that I might not sin against You.
SO... set up a consistent systematic habit of reading, study, and memorization of Scripture. Hide it away in your heart, and you will find that the Spirit will bring the Word to your mind as you need it. And you'll need it a lot!
OTHER Books I'd recommend for ministry:
Celebration of Discipline - teaches the spiritual practices that will keep you from burning out, and enable you to make DISCIPLES of Jesus, and not just talk about Him.
(http://www.amazon.com/Celebration-Discipline-Path-Spiritual-Growth/dp/0060628391/ref=tmm_hrd_title_0?ie=UTF8&qid=1408074973&sr=8-1)
Becoming a Dynamic Youth Leader - teaches a lot of the nuts and bolts of how to actually run a youth ministry in a church setting. Written from a conservative perspective, these practices will translate well into many different church contexts.
(http://www.churchgrowth.org/product/becoming-a-dynamic-youth-leader/)
Planning Youth Ministry From Boot Up to Exit -this is a very practical resource if you can find it. (It's out of print; you'll have to find someone with a used copy. Check the Southern Baptists in your area, since that's the author's ministry background.)
I'd also recommend reading theology instead of current best-selling Christian books, as you'll get more use out of building a solid foundation than you will reading about the latest techniques for what happens to be popular.
God bless you as you serve Him!
If you are looking for a imaging of what hell is, why it exists and why God may be just in letting hell exist, might I suggest reading the Great Divorce by CS Lewis. It presents a hell that is nothing like Dante's interpretation, but still shows how awful it could be and how much better a relationship with God would be.
https://www.amazon.com/Great-Divorce-C-S-Lewis/dp/0060652950
Edit: Typo
You can see this perspective played out a little in The Great Divorce in which Lewis rides a bus from Earth to hell and then to heaven, and also in The Last Battle in which Aslan proclaims to the devout Calormene soldier, "all the service thou hast done to Tash [a false god], I accept as service done to me… no service which is vile can be done to me, and none which is not vile can be done to him."
I've been reading Dr. William Lane Craig's Reasonable Faith and finding it to be pretty stimulating so if you want something on the more academic end then that could be good.
CS Lewis's The Great Divorce is a good, quick read with an interesting take on the natures of Heaven and Hell.
Rev. Dr. Mary Kathleen Cunningham is a very good scholar who I studied under during undergrad and who has put together a very nice reader which surveys the spectrum of belief in the creationism/evolution debate called God and Evolution which is good if you're interested in that kind of thing.
Dr. Craig Keener has a good, cohesive commentary on the New Testament which you can buy as a single volume called The IVP Bible Background Commentary: New Testament.
So there's a few to start out with. Let me know if you're looking for anything more specific and I can try to help (I have a budding theological library in my apartment).
I would suggest the book "Simply Christian: Why Christianity Makes Sense" by NT Wright. Wright is a retired bishop in the Church of England and is one of the foremost biblical scholars of this generation. The book is very approachable and may be just the ticket you're looking for. Link: http://www.amazon.com/Simply-Christian-Christianity-Makes-Sense/dp/0061920622/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1404691471&sr=8-1&keywords=simply+christian
Also, if I can serve you on this journey in some other way, don't hesitate to message me.
Best wishes and may you be blessed and become a blessing for others.....
N.T. Wright, Simply Christian: Why Christianity Makes Sense (New York: HarperCollins, 2006).
Bible Doctrine is an easier and shorter version of Wayne Grudem's Systematic Theology. You could also go for the full version. It's very popular.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0310222338
Star Trek Collection, a watch and this book which brings you in at about $72 :)
In case you want to read up more on your question, you may be interested in Dietrich Bonhoeffer’s struggle with the same thing. Give Ethics or The Cost of Discipleship a try. TLDR; he was a pastor in the end who decided it was biblical to conspire against Hitler and it cost him his life. Really smart, well-reasoned man who had a biblical basis for what he wrote. Found myself challenged by his books.
The easiest way to get Christianity is to read the Bible. But to supplement that, I would encourage you to read books by these two German authors: Dietrich Bonhoeffer, and Jurgen Moltmann
Bonhoeffer was a prominent leader of the confessing church (the church that resisted Hitler) and was a prominent member of the German resistance and a part of the Valkyrie plot. If you want to know more about him and his life, Eric Metaxas wrote an excellent Biography about him. Bonhoeffer's most famous works are "Life Together" about living a life in Christian community, and "The Cost of Discipleship" which is about Grace and how we must not live in a place of cheap Grace. Bonhoeffer was executed a t Flossenburg concentration camp a few months before VE day, and there are some nice memorials to him there (about 1.5 hours east of Nurnberg).
Jurgen Moltmann was drafted into Hitler's army in like 1944 and was taken prisoner. He found God in a Scottish POW camp. Moltmann writes a lot about Hope and spends a lot of time exploring what Christ's sacrifices mean to believers. Some of his most famous works are "The Crucified God", "Theology of Hope", "Trinity and the Kingdom" and "The Way of Jesus Christ." Moltmann also comments on more social issues which arose in the post-war era and has a more social theology, which adds a unique depth to his writing.
These are some of the books that I've enjoyed for spiritual reading (but it's hard to separate the books I've enjoyed as theology from spiritual readings some times!):
Can I recommend a short book that I've found really helpful in explaining the Trinity, how it's essential to Christianity, and why it's a doctrine full of great delight?
It's known as either 'The Good God' by Michael Reeves or 'Delighting in the Trinity
Apologetics: The Reason for God Tim Keller
Spiritual Life: Desiring God John Piper
Theology: Systematic Theology Wayne Grudem
Discipleship: Christ's Call to Discipleship James Montgomery Boice
Politics: Walking in the Way Joe Tull-Not on politics, but it is an ethics book that I think will give you a grasp on the ethical dimensions that affect some political decisions.
Philosophy: The Love of Wisdom Steven Cowan. A CHristian intro to philosophy, but it includes chapters on aesthetics and political philosophy.
Desiring God is, in my opinion, is one of the best modern theology books. Doesn't have any apologetics though, don't know if you're looking more for that or not.
I would suggest two things:
You can PM me if you want more book suggestions, some good ones are free on amazon if you have prime.
Just a couple of suggestions from my bookshelf:
I think you need more time before weighing in on stuff like this from an Orthodox perspective. The theology does smack of protestant legalism. The journey to become Orthodox is a long one and it's not merely about adopting a certain set of principles. It's a mindset and takes participation in the Mysteries and acquiring the Holy Spirit. We never give up hope on someone's salvation, even after they die. Through God, all things are possible.
As for books, here's a great book that begins to deconstruct protestant legalistic theologies on sin and heaven/hell. https://www.amazon.com/Becoming-Orthodox-Journey-Ancient-Christian/dp/1936270005
For reference: Becoming Orthodox by Fr Peter Gilquist, formerly a leader of Campus Crusade, recently reposed.
Also, it's been a long while, but I recall also enjoying a book called Common Ground.
There are many of us that reject traditional views of what the Bible is and how it should be read. I've just finished reading a couple of books by Peter Enns (view here and here) that address the concerns you brought up as well as many others. It was a very therapeutic read for me.
One book I really love is The Bible Tells Me So by Peter Enns. It helped me reconcile the faith I felt with the the issues I had with how the Bible is used.
We're not kidding around when we say that the Orthodox Church is the one, true Church founded by Jesus Christ himself. A traditional way of putting that would be to say that we believe that the Orthodox Church is the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. It kind of boggles the mind, when you think about it.
If you're interested, I'll include a link to a book by a Protestant who went in search of this Church (and found it, imo). If you're familiar with Campus Crusade for Christ, he actually helped found it back in the 70's. The title is a spoiler alert -- when he went on a quest to find the Church, he found the Orthodox Church. Link.
As an aside, his son is also a priest (and also named Peter Gilquist). And Fr. Peter Gilquist (Jr.) is the priest who received me into the Church. I'm not at his parish any more but I sure miss him -- God bless that family.
Anyway, good luck in your quest. Let us know if you have any questions.
Not the same guy you were talking to but if you want to learn about the three main views of hell and the arguments for and against each one I highly recommend this book by Steve Gregg.
You consider that perhaps God will not eternally torture someone in return for a minuscule amount of time spent in sin.
And I say that in all seriousness.
There is a lot of evidence that eternal hell is at least not a certainty, if not completely false.
I won't post all about it here in case you do not care to hear it. I will simply encourage you to read up on it. One of the best books written on the subject is dirt cheap:
http://www.amazon.com/All-Want-Know-About-Hell/dp/1401678300
I have gone through what you are feeling, only as an infantryman I wondered how I could live with myself having participated in sending brainwashed teenagers to an eternity or torment. Just because some young man had been led astray by an Imam in his search for truth, I would still the one that physically sent them to hell with a pull of the trigger.
I was saved after my time in the military, and I began to wonder about hell. If my heart was regenerated, and I have the heart of God now, why would God let my heart feel eternal torment was wrong if it was truly God's purpose. Thus, I set out to search for the truth of the matter.
I could tell you more about what I believe I found, or that book lays it out very well without taking a side.
I pray you find your peace AND the truth in all things.
This is why it is called Grace. Grace is something that is given, not earned. It is not deserved or it would be called a reward. I highly recommend reading this book from John Piper called Desiring God. It really dives into this concept.
More Than A Carpenter
There’s a lot of good responses here already but I wanted to offer some resources and ideas that have helped me.
First of all, despite what the new atheists say, you don’t need faith to believe in God, which is why there are so many deists in academia. The weight of the scientific evidence alone is enough to conclude that there must be some kind of intelligence behind reality. This includes the fine-tuning argument, a variation of which convinced Antony Flew, a life long atheist academic and strong critic of religion to change his mind about God and embrace deism, and quantum mechanics, which doesn’t prove God’s existence but rather undermines materialist assumptions about the fundamental nature of reality. These findings have convinced others in the scientific community such as lifelong atheist, Richard Conn Henry, a professor of theoretical physics at MIT to embrace deism.
So just based on what’s happening with physics, it’s reasonable to believe that there’s some kind of intelligence behind reality. However, this in no way proves the existence of the God of the Bible.
To support the Christian view of God you can look at the evidence for the reliability of New Testament accounts. This is where faith comes in. You have to decide whether or not you believe that Jesus actually rose from the dead. Obviously, there isn’t a scientific way to definitively prove whether or not an historical event happened. But if you want support for the idea that miracles happen and are relatively common, even today, I’d recommend Craig S Keeners magisterial 2 volume work “Miracles” which details hundreds of modern day miracle accounts.
Other reading:
The Divine Conspiracy by Dallas Willard who was a professor of philosophy for many years at USC, helped me to understand my faith at a deeper level, which has helped immensely. It turns out it’s much easier to believe in something when it actually makes sense to you.
On Guard by William Lane Craig explains many of the logical proofs that other commenters have offered here, which are great but can be really difficult to understand without spending a good amount of time with them.
Atheist Delusions by David Bentley Hart: Hart is a leading Orthodox theologian and philosopher who spends a lot of time talking about the logical incoherence of materialism. All his stuff is great but it’s difficult.
This is just a small sample of what’s out there in terms of apologetics but it’s a start. There’s enough that you could spend your entire life reading compelling arguments for the God’s existence. However, the most effective way to strengthen your faith, in my opinion, is to see how effective the teachings of Jesus are for yourself, to ACTUALLY DO what he says and see how it transforms your life first hand. This is how you make your faith unshakable. Nothing beats personal experience.
Part 3: Book recommendations:
If you want to dig deep into this topic, here are some book recommendations. Perhaps you would want to read N.T. Wright's Christian Origins and the Question of God series (this is very heavy, scholarly reading). N.T. Wright is the foremost scholar on the New Testament and this is possibly the most thorough literature on the historical Jesus, early Christianity and the Apostle Paul:
https://www.logos.com/product/37361/christian-origins-and-the-question-of-god-series
Anything by N.T. Wright is well worth reading (Simply Christian and Surprised by Hope would be good introductions). Likewise, anything by Ravi Zacharias.
The Case for the Resurrection of Jesus by Gary R. Habermas and Michael R. Licona: https://www.amazon.ca/Case-Resurrection-Jesus-Gary-Habermas/dp/0825427886
Seeking Allah, Finding Jesus: A Devout Muslim Encounters Christianity by Nabeel Qureshi: https://www.amazon.com/Books-Nabeel-Qureshi/s?ie=UTF8&page=1&rh=n%3A283155%2Cp_27%3ANabeel%20Qureshi
No God But One: Allah or Jesus?: A Former Muslim Investigates the Evidence for Islam and Christianity by Nabeel Qureshi: https://www.amazon.com/God-but-One-Investigates-Christianity/dp/0310522552/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1517050609&sr=1-2&refinements=p_27%3ANabeel+Qureshi
On Guard by William Lane Craig: https://www.amazon.ca/Guard-William-Lane-Craig/dp/1434764885/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1526542104&sr=8-1&keywords=on+guard+william+lane+craig
The Case for Christ: A Journalist's Personal Investigation of the Evidence for Jesus by Lee Strobel: https://www.amazon.ca/Case-Christ-Journalists-Personal-Investigation/dp/0310339308
Bonus reading: Heaven by Randy Alcorn: https://www.amazon.ca/Heaven-Randy-Alcorn/dp/0842379428/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1526542237&sr=1-1&keywords=randy+alcorn+heaven
Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis: https://www.amazon.ca/Mere-Christianity-C-S-Lewis/dp/0060652926
Read anything by G.K. Chesterton, especially, The Everlasting Man
Answers to Common Objections and Questions:
Jesus’ Resurrection and Christian Origins: http://ntwrightpage.com/2016/07/12/jesus-resurrection-and-christian-origins/
The Evidence for Jesus: https://www.reasonablefaith.org/writings/popular-writings/jesus-of-nazareth/the-evidence-for-jesus/
The Resurrection of Jesus: https://www.reasonablefaith.org/writings/popular-writings/jesus-of-nazareth/the-resurrection-of-jesus/
The Resurrection of Jesus Christ as Christianity's Centerpiece: http://www.cslewisinstitute.org/The_Resurrection_of_Jesus_Christ_as_Christianitys_Centerpiece_FullArticle?fbclid=IwAR0oE22vtBvR2u--R78tSyW-51OpIbWBfWDNH2Ep8miBc9W6uUJMwMsz0yk
Origin, Meaning, Morality and Destiny: http://rzim.org/just-thinking/think-again-deep-questions/
Accompanying video to the link above: Why is Christianity True?: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5qJPZySo7A
How Do You Know Christianity Is the One True Way of Living? | Abdu Murray: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14ze_SVg-0E&app=desktop
What makes Christianity unique among the world’s religions? Verifiability is a Christian Distinctive: https://coldcasechristianity.com/writings/verifiability-is-a-christian-distinctive/
Is Jesus God? (Feat. Craig, Strobel, Habermas, Licona, Qureshi...): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8dLoKCyDDAg&app=desktop
How Can Understanding Eyewitness Testimony Help Us Evaluate the Gospels?: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tCDDsPXQSQ&app=desktop
Historical Evidence for the Resurrection - Can a Scientist Believe in the Resurrection? - Nabeel Qureshi: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hD7w1Uja2o
Questioning Jesus: Critically Considering Christian Claims with Dr. Nabeel Qureshi: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0UpuEDp4ObA
Did Jesus Rise From the Dead? | Yale 2014 | William Lane Craig: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NAOc6ctw1s&app=desktop
Historical Resurrection of Christ?: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0Dc01HVlaM
Are The New Testament Documents Historically Credible?: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sgdsIaqFAp4
Are the Gospels Accurate?: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxrDy_G8h88
(Answer to the common objection: ‘the gospels are anonymous’)
Gospel Authorship—Who Cares?: https://www.reasonablefaith.org/question-answer/P40/gospel-authorshipwho-cares
What is the Evidence That Jesus Appeared Alive After His Death?: https://youtu.be/96WIa3pZISE
On Extra-Biblical Sources for Jesus' Post-Mortem Appearances: https://youtu.be/-Dbx7PPIIsQ
Did Jesus Rise From The Dead Or Was It A Hoax By His Followers?: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aELRKdxV7Wk
Follow up to the previous video: Did Jesus rise from the dead, or was it hallucinations by his followers?: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29224I3x_M0&feature=youtu.be
Did the Disciples Invent the Resurrection?: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HOHUWsNDPZc
Facts to show the Resurrection is not fiction, by William Lane Craig: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8AduPVkqbis
Did Paul actually see the risen Jesus, or did he simply have some sort of vision?: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8yNdynwqtWI&t
What Do You Mean By ‘Literal?’: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxQpFosrTUk
Evidence For Jesus' Resurrection: https://youtu.be/4iyxR8uE9GQ?t=1s
Death, Resurrection and Afterlife: https://youtu.be/HXAc_x_egk4?t=1s
Did Jesus Really Rise From The Dead?: https://youtu.be/KnkNKIJ_dnw?t=1s
4 Historical Facts That Prove Jesus Really Did Rise From The Dead: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmKg62GDqF4
What About Pre-Christ Resurrection Myths?: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qrCYVk6xrXg
Jesus and Pagan Mythology: Is Jesus A Copied Myth or Real Person?: https://www.reasonablefaith.org/writings/question-answer/jesus-and-pagan-mythology/
Zeitgeist - Is Jesus A Myth: https://alwaysbeready.com/zeitgeist-the-movie
Did Greco-Roman myths influence the Gospel accounts of the resurrection of Jesus?: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pt9rlG7ABo&app=desktop
Does the Resurrection Require Extraordinary Evidence?: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLN30A0vmlo
Moral Argument For God’s Existence: How Can A Good God Allow Evil? Does Life Have Meaning?: https://youtu.be/it7mhQ8fEq0
Are there Inconsistencies Between the Four Gospels?: https://youtu.be/sgdsIaqFAp4
Why Are There Differences in the Resurrection Accounts?: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtz2lVGmXFI
Don't the Gospels Contradict One Another?: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gt9kCwttVY
Why Differences Between the Gospels Demonstrate Their Reliability: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zimP8m3_hCk
Why the Gospels Can Differ, Yet Still Be Reliable: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=An5wU2hxIfM
Four Reasons the New Testament Gospels Are Reliable: http://coldcasechristianity.com/2015/four-reasons-the-new-testament-gospels-are-reliable/
Find Contradictions in the Bible All You Want: https://www.thepoachedegg.net/2019/05/apologetics-find-contradictions-in-the-bible-all-you-want.html
The Case for the Historicity and Deity of Jesus: https://coldcasechristianity.com/writings/the-case-for-the-historicity-and-deity-of-jesus/
Bart Ehrman is one of the world's most renowned ancient historians/New Testament scholars, and he is an atheist. Listen to what he has to say on the matter of Jesus' existence: The Historical Jesus DID Exist - Bart Ehrman: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43mDuIN5-ww
Bart D Ehrman About the Historical Jesus: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6U6TJ4cwSo
Extra-Biblical evidence: In addition to the gospel accounts and the letters from the Apostle Paul, we have sources outside the New Testament with references to Jesus in the writings of Josephus, Tacitus, Thallus, the Jewish Talmud, etc:
http://coldcasechristianity.com/2017/is-there-any-evidence-for-jesus-outside-the-bible/
Is There Extrabiblical Evidence About Jesus' Life?: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzP0Kz9eT_U&app=desktop
How do we know Jesus was really who he said he was?: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ksvhHEoMLM&app=desktop
YouTube Channels to browse:
William Lane Craig - ReasonableFaithOrg: https://www.youtube.com/user/ReasonableFaithOrg?app=desktop
drcraigvideos: https://www.youtube.com/user/drcraigvideos?app=desktop
Ravi Zacharias - Ravi Zacharias International Ministries: https://www.youtube.com/user/rzimmedia?app=desktop
J. Warner Wallace - Cold-Case Christianity with J. Warner Wallace: https://www.youtube.com/user/pleaseconvinceme/featured?disable_polymer=1
The Bible Project: https://www.youtube.com/user/jointhebibleproject
Unbelievable?: https://www.youtube.com/user/PremierUnbelievable
David Wood - Acts17Apologetics: https://www.youtube.com/user/Acts17Apologetics
Nabeel Qureshi - NQMinistries: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCepxnLs6GWAxAyI8m2U9s7A/featured?disable_polymer=1
Randy Alcorn - Eternal Perspective Ministries with Randy Alcorn: https://www.youtube.com/user/eternalperspectives?app=desktop
Frank Turek - Cross Examined: https://www.youtube.com/user/TurekVideo
Brian Holdsworth: https://www.youtube.com/user/holdsworthdesign
You're right to an extent. My view is that your husband is spouting the typical atheist mumbo jumbo that you find too much in here (and elsewhere). The atheist position does incur the burden of proof despite what the "weak" atheists would like to believe.
But that doesn't mean that one cannot come to a rational reason to accept that God doesn't exist (or most likely doesn't exist). Here is one such method:
This is called the Evidential Problem of Evil by the atheist philosopher of religion William Rowe. This is not a rock solid proof of God's non-existence and there are other philosophical proofs that come to the same conclusions from different directions. However, you'll note that there are also no rock solid proofs of God's existence (though there are very strong arguments for God's existence). From my point of view, it seems things are at an impasse and one can find perfectly rational reasons to accept that God does exist and perfectly rational reasons to accept that God does not exist (and, further, perfectly rational reasons why we cannot have any rational reason to believe in the existence or non existence of God, to boot!). Confused? I know I am and I suspect a lot of other folks are far more confused than they either know or will admit.
I'm a bit concerned that your husband has bitten off on the /r/atheism style of thought that are proudly (sadly?) on display in many responses to you in this very post. That would be a shame, but it's very common. I can tell you this if your husband has gone down that rabbit hole, there is no amount of arguing with him about God's existence that is going to change his mind. It'll only make him resent you and it will make him consider you stupid and he'll be able to make your life quite miserable. That's the fact of the matter, the typical internet atheist has a massive superiority complex and considers even the slightest wavering from the atheist dogma to be an indication of mental retardation.
So how would I approach it? That's a tough one. NOT through anger or guilt trips (a la "you committed to a Christian relationship and are backing out without my consent") or debates. Maybe try a simple discussion. Hear him out with a willingness to really listen and absorb all of his thoughts on the subject. Just hear what he is saying and try to understand where he is coming from. That, at least, is a good start and it generally is worthwhile for any time your marriage gets a bit rocky. If you're lucky and if your husband is truly a good person, he'll come around to being open to listening to why you believe what you believe. So now would be a good time to start brushing up on that. From the sounds of it, your days of lackadaisical acceptance of Christianity are behind you. There are plenty of resources for you to learn about how a belief in God is rationally justified. Here are a few books and websites that you might want to start reading:
Anyhow, I can't imagine that this is going to be a lot of fun for you any way you slice it. You can at least mitigate the pain by not playing the hypersensitive christian part that he is being indoctrinated that all religious people are. Stay rational and loving and caring above all else and demand that he do the same. You can work this out, but it'll take effort from both of you.
You're very welcome!
I think a problem you may encounter is that a philosophy-based discussion will take a lot of time, research and effort by all participants and so it will be hard to have good interchanges online. It may be a good idea to focus on scouring debating apologists who are adept at giving arguments in small periods of time. I'd start with William Lane Craig. Perhaps here or with his podcast here
Another book recommendation...
Check out Meeting Jesus Again for the First Time by Marcus Borg. This description from one of the reviews introduces the book pretty well:
>His essential premise involves the importance, even primacy, of our personal image of Jesus. Is Jesus the savior who requires faith? Or, is Jesus a great teacher of moral ideals? Borg rejects both in chapter one. Borg imagines Jesus as one to whom spirit, and the experience of spirit, was foundational. Accordingly, Borg does not understand the Christian life to be "about believing or about being good .... It is about a relationship with God that involves us in a journey of transformation."
I really want to read The Meaning of Jesus: Two Visions now. I just finished reading Meeting Jesus Again for the First Time: The Historical Jesus and the Heart of Contemporary Faith which was written by one of the authors of the book you suggested, Marcus J. Borg. I highly recommend it as well.
You might like John Shelby Spong or Marcus Borg. All of their books are pretty good, but these books are the last ones I read of them, and they are pretty good, and seem like what you are looking for.
The Cost of Discipleship by Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Crazy Love by Francis Chan
Desiring God by John Piper
Celebration of Discipline by Richard Foster
I'm trying to do Lent for realz this year and letting it carry me through the liturgical year, based primarily on the work being done at BCC but also using this site to craft my private worship. I'm hoping school and class allow me enough flexibility to attend services at SLC's mother cathedral. I plan on attending a six PM service tonight.
I'm giving up meat, as well as fast food in general, during Lent, as well as a moratorium on buying new apps for my iPhone. Besides the readings from the scriptures and the above sites, I'm reading Celebration of Discipline to deepen my thinking about what things I do as a part of my spiritual practice.
I'm really looking forward to this.
The Disciplined Life by Richard S Taylor
Celebration of Discipline by Richard J Foster
The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People by Stephen R Covey
I wish you would've put a question mark at the end, because then I could've assumed that you weren't being condescending (correct me if I'm wrong, I hope you aren't trying to be condescending).
So here is the thing - God wrote his law into nature. We know it intuitively. We just don't follow it because we think we know better. This is true if you are in the Bible belt or some isolated tribe in the amazon. People tend to be pretty comfortable living this way, because that little pang of conscience we get when we sin gets smaller and ^smaller ^and ^^smaller. What people don't get about heaven and hell though is that for those who are comfortable in their sins, whether they be sexual promiscuity, or greed, or arrogance, or whatever, heaven is a very unpleasant place. Without some pretty major, invasive transformation, no one would enjoy being there, because the lies we tell ourselves about how we are good people become painfully obvious. Every time in the Bible that someone apprehends God in his glory, they fall down in stark terror. We need to be cleansed in order to enjoy the pleasures of God.
So, every day, that isolated tribesman has a choice. Does he live a life of moral perfection? Or does he compare himself against others, decide he's not that bad, and live life for himself? Invariably he chooses to do the latter, and every time that is a choice against the salvation that you say he is doomed to miss. But here is the thing - he wouldn't want that salvation. None of us do. The conversion from nonchristian to saint in heaven is very long and painful, and there isn't a single person who would want to arrive at that destination if asked about it before that process is started.
CS Lewis (author of the Narnia series) wrote a fascinating thought experiment on this subject, called The Great Divorce.
It's normal to have questions. It's good you're thinking about your religion.
>1 I heard the Bible has been altered (esp. the New Testament) by people so that they can eat pork, drink occasionally, not be circumcised, etc. However, the Quran hasn't. This is why my Muslim friends are all circumcised, don't eat pork, drink, etc. Like the stuff in the Old Testament. Is there any proof that the Bible is unaltered?
The dietary laws found in the OT are strictly for the nation of Israel. Most of them come as a sort of national penance for the idolatry at Sinai and were never meant to followed by the Gentiles. God elected Israel to prepare the world to see what election is grounded in (His gratuitous love). He choose a people who were of no account to demonstrate that when He elects, He does so freely and not because we bring anything to the table. He gave Israel the law to train them so that they would learn to grow accustomed to delighting in following God.
>2 Why did Jesus die for our sins, if anything is possible?
God did not have to become man and dwell among us (John 1.14) and be crucified for our sins. It was nevertheless fitting that He did so. Why? One reason is because it shows us what sort of love God has for us. He's fully invested in His creation. He knew from eternity that when He created this place, He was going to come down here and show His love in the Incarnation and crucifixion.
The Crucifix also inverts the world's expectations about power. Adam and Eve sinned because of pride, preferring themselves to God. So Jesus comes and shows us what true humility looks like (cf. Phil. 2). He doesn't "win" by power (though He could have), but shows His creatures what it looks like to love humbly.
>3 Why does God send us, who He created, to Hell to be eternally tortured if we don't believe (believe in me or I'll torture you)? I'm trying my hardest to believe and be a good Christian, but I have so many unanswered questions and doubts that are getting in the way.
Wouldn't Heaven for someone who does not love God actually be Hell? If they don't love Him now on earth, what makes you think they would enjoy Him in Heaven? It's not a safe assumption that the person who stood before God would automatically enjoy it. God has created creatures with a will because to love Him without being able to will it would be meaningless. It would be a sort of farce on God's part. However, that means some will freely choose to reject Him. If our wills mean anything, then God respects that and doesn't force those people to love Him for eternity (which is what Heaven is). I would read CS Lewis' The Great Divorce.
>4 Will God send those people who are raised in another religion, such as in Thailand (Buddhism), who don't have any external way of being informed of Christianity (like missionaries), to be tortured forever in Hell?
Some Christians believe this is so - that you're just out of luck if you happen not to be exposed to the Gospel. Catholics are not one of those sorts and I can only speak as a Catholic. For us, we follow St. Paul's thinking in Romans 2.14-15. Paul there talks about the natural law which is imprinted on our hearts by virtue of being created in the image of God. The Catechism says that the man who searches for God in another religion and does so earnestly is somehow being prepared for the Gospel (CCC 843) because all truth and goodness come from God. We trust those souls to God's mercy and justice, knowing that He is both.
>5 Why did God put a tree of knowledge if no one could eat from it? Like He purposely put the temptation there, knowing that at least some of us will be tempted to sin, and from there, be eternally damned.
Obedience which comes from love is the mark of the Christian life. CS Lewis' Perelandra does a good job at thinking about this. Basically Lewis says that there are sometimes rules which God gives which do not have a rationale on their own except that God has asked us to follow them. So in Perelandra, the woman is not allowed to live on the fixed land simply because God has asked her not to. By following this rule, however, she grows in love for God. She grows up, understanding what obedience is.
>6 Why does sin and the possibility of being sent to Hell for eternal torture exist, if God loves us more than anything? Doesn't He know that with creating humans, a lot of them will sin?
He does, but He hasn't remained aloof from the situation. Hebrews 4.15 tells us, "For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin." That's beautiful. Think on the Incarnation and the sheer gratuity of God's love in that act. Also see my above answer about hell.
>7 How would He judge agnostics? Like there are so many religions, and uncertainties, that some people will just gather from every religion that there is indeed a God who created us. Like people who follow basic morals like treating others well, but still do sins like, greed, lust (without rape or cheating), sodomy?
We don't know about any particular person who goes to hell. We simply trust God's goodness, His mercy, His justice, etc.
>8 Lust, masturbation, greed - why do those traits seem natural to humans, if they are sins? Like of course it's natural to look at the opposite sex and lust after them, especially when our hormones are raging.
Sin is the distortion of something good. Some women are beautiful. Recognizing their beauty isn't wrong. But sin warps our wills and desires, it warps our inclinations. Adam's and Eve's wills were in accord with their reason, but sin distorts this unity. This is why we do things (like sin) that we wish we did not (cf. Rom. 7). Neither lust, masturbation, nor greed are natural to man - they do not accord with the end for which God has created them (beatitude). Lust is an unhealthy fixation and a distortion of the natural goodness of human sexuality, which is given as a gift. Masturbation is the same - masturbation takes a gift meant for the sake of another (i.e. one's spouse) and misuses it for oneself. It takes something which is meant to be outward looking and makes it isolated. That's not what God created us for. Greed likewise is a disordered desire of goods. Any good thing we see on earth should point us to God, but greed terminates solely in created things and forgets the Creator.
I hope some of that helps.
I grew up Baptist but became an atheist when I was 17. After 20 years I came back this summer. One thing that really helped me was the new Testament scholar N.T. Wright, he has a book, Simply Christian which I will recommend:
https://www.amazon.com/Simply-Christian-Christianity-Makes-Sense/dp/0061920622
He has a lot of lectures on youtube and the like, easy to google and also commentaries on various books of the New Testament. If you aren't used to reading the Bible it might help to have a commentary to help with the many things that can seem unfamiliar or strange to a modern reader.
I agree with the earlier poster who warned about the King James. The King James is a beautiful translation and a foundational work of english literature but might be a poor choice for a modern reader seeking to understand content. For that I might go with one of the various 'RSV' translations like RSV, NRSV, ESV, RSV-CE, RSV-2CE etc.
Another thing that is helpful is what is called the 'lectionary' which is basically the Bible broken up into readings throughout the church year on a three year cycle. It is easy to follow along on a daily basis and helps get you into sort of a pattern. The lectionary is used by many churches, Roman Catholic, Episcopal/Anglican, Lutheran, some Methodist and Presbyterian, etc.
Daily reading: http://www.dailylectio.net
Full lectionary: http://lectionary.library.vanderbilt.edu/
There are also lectionary apps for your phone.
Also if you decide toattend mass/service at a church that uses the lectionary you will basically be following along.
I find reading the Bible every day and praying does change you, maybe in ways you won't expect.
How about something by N.T. Wright, like Simply Christian?
maybe you should have a read of this book:
http://www.amazon.com/Bible-Tells-Me-Defending-Scripture/dp/0062272020
I realize you may be trolling to spark debate but let me take a crack at this... I can no longer take the bible literally, only literary. Have you heard or read of any of Pete Enns' books? In this old blog series, Enns writes: "The biblical flood story (Genesis 6-9) has certainly taken a beating over the last two or three centuries. The problems began in earnest once geologists realized that a literal submersion of the entire earth in water is contradicted by clear scientific evidence.
There are similarities between the biblical flood story and two older Mesopotamian versions, Gilgamesh and Atrahasis.
The literary evidence from ancient Mesopotamia makes it very likely that Genesis 6-9 is Israel’s version of a common and much older ancient Near Eastern flood story. The similarities are clear, but the theology of the biblical story goes off in fresh directions.
The biblical flood story must be understood in the context of what humans were created to be. He formed the first man from dust and breathed life into him, rather than forming him out of the blood of the slain god Kingu. Humanity is the chief of creation, not a class of slaves so the gods can be in repose.
Humans downfall, and the cause of the flood, was in their failure to live up to this high and honored status. Though made in the image of God, they chose their own path. What had been “very good” (1:31) was now “only evil all the time” (6:5).
The truth of the biblical flood story is not found in how accurately it reports actual geological events. It is found in the theological message understood in its ancient setting.
For both contextual and scientific reasons, the biblical flood story is clearly not a statement of vital historical information. It is a powerful expression of theological identity among the other peoples of the world.
I understand this does not satisfy everyone. Some feel that for the flood story to have any theological value for readers today, it must be historical in nature. I hope this is not the case. If the flood story’s theological value depends on all of the earth’s population being wiped out a few thousand years ago, we have a problem. We will have erected an impassable obstruction between the present state of knowledge, scientific and biblical, and any hope of a viable Christian faith that is connected to the Bible.
Here’s the relevant Enns book.
https://www.amazon.com/Bible-Tells-Me-Defending-Scripture/dp/0062272039
My first serious faith crisis happened about 7 years ago when I was around your age and attending a Nazarene university. I honestly don't remember what happened at the time for me to continue in the faith, I think I just decided that "God was bigger than the boxes I tried to put him in" and I left it at that.
My second serious faith crisis happened several months ago, where I encountered one thing after another that I just couldn't reconcile. One of the books that really launched my current trajectory was The Bible Tells Me So: Why Defending Scripture Has Made Us Unable to Read It. This book (by Peter Enns, a controversial Christian Bible scholar) reframed how I viewed the Bible and resonated with me on many levels. However, my upbringing was very much that the Bible is the infallible, inerrant word of God, and the contradictions and inaccuracies revealed in Enns' book only added to the multiplying cracks in my rigid foundation.
From here I ended up listening to hours upon hours of podcasts and debates, including the Unbelievable? program, which often brings a Christian and non-Christian together to debate. Time and time again I felt like the non-Christian had the better, more reasonable argument.
I also became more familiar with Dan Barker and Bart D. Ehrman, both former Christians and now prominent atheists. In my naiveté, I had always assumed that atheists were more likely to convert to Christianity than the other way around. I was shocked to learn of former pastors and missionaries (who had served for decades even) that had deconverted, and I felt compelled to know more about why someone that immersed in the religion could feel confident enough to walk away.
So here I am. Agnostic is probably the best term for me now. I am more convinced of some things I don't accept than those I do, but am also learning to be okay with not having all the answers, because realistically we never will.
You are doing it wrong. Never agree to read a book without getting them to read one in return. And they will not read a Dawkins book. Instead go for a Rachel Held Evans book (Faith Unraveled), where the author is still a Christian. https://www.amazon.com/dp/0310339162/
Also, Peter Enns (The Bible Told Me So) is a Christian theologian and is another one to challenge their view of the Bible. Again both are Christians still, but it will challenge their fundamentalism. That's the first step just to get them to learn to safely ask questions of their own faith. https://www.amazon.com/dp/0062272039/
Review by Rachel Held Evans of Peter Enns' book:
http://rachelheldevans.com/blog/peter-enns-bible-tells-me-so
Pick one of those books, and promise to discuss it with them afterwards, in exchange for reading a book they pick.
The key is that you want them to realize that you know more about the Bible than they do. When you are ready for it, I recommend Bart Ehrman (Misquoting Jesus). https://www.amazon.com/dp/0060859512/
And finally, watch more Street Epistomology videos on youtube. You need to focus more on the "Why" of what they believe. You are spending too much time arguing, and not enough time trying to learn about "why" they believe. For most, it's fear of death.
When I was first asking these questions, this book helped a lot.
Well, I actually grew up in the Pentecostal tradition. I converted to Southern Baptist about two years ago, and made the switch to reformed theology about one year ago.
It really depends on the church with Baptists; they're highly variable. Some groups, like free-will baptists, are emphatically opposed to Calvin and the like. Others, like self-proclaimed reformed baptists, welcome and celebrate Calvin and his contemporaries' contributions to Protestantism. I've never attended a baptist church that wasn't at least implicitly Calvinist, though I only recently started attending a properly reformed Church that observed the 2nd London Baptist Confession. Hence, it's kind of difficult to give much advice, as I've always been in friendly territory.
If you just want to get a better feel for reformed theology in-general, there are a couple of routes. Depending on your reading comprehension and Biblical competence, I would recommend a few books.
Novice: Bible Doctrine, Grudem.
This is a decent, modern introduction to systematic theology in-general. Grudem is not what many would call reformed, but he leans that way. Whatever the case, it is a helpful look into the terminology that theologians have utilized over the years. Good place to get your feet wet.
Adept: Systematic Theology, Grudem
Reformed Dogmatics, Bavinck
These ones are a bit more academically oriented, so if you're not used to reading this sort of thing, they might be difficult to read. Bavinck's work is highly recommended, and is properly reformed, though it takes a greater reading comprehension than Grudem.
Advanced: Institutes of the Christian Religion, Calvin
Anything else earlier than the 20th Century (Jonathan Edwards, John Owen, etc.)
This is the bedrock of reformed theology, which I'm sure you're probably aware of. The only problem is that it can be very difficult to read. In some cases, much more than the content of modern academia. This is really a very very distilled list. There is literally so much good material out there, but these are some of the big names that I hear often.
As regards general advice, two things come to mind:
I'll be praying that you heed the Scriptures in all things, and that your life coheres with the will of God. Feel free to PM me if you have any specific questions or concerns as relates the reformation, theology, Scripture, or anything!
Soli deo Gloria
Honestly Bible Doctrine is one of the easiest Systematics to understand. (I might be a bit biased since Jeff Purswell is our dean of our Pastors College and I have great affection for the man.)
EDIT: Bonus: John Frame's Systematic is also pretty readable.
https://www.amazon.com/Tactics-Game-Discussing-Christian-Convictions/dp/0310282926/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1484849131&sr=8-1&keywords=tactics+greg+koukl
Great resources!
https://www.str.org
https://www.str.org/training/ambassador-basic-curriculum
https://www.amazon.com/Tactics-Game-Discussing-Christian-Convictions/dp/0310282926
A Christian's faith in God is not of their own doing, it's a gift from God. One must be obedient before one can have faith. Some chapters of this book helped me to understand this concept.
Any of Bonhoeffer's works would be good. His Cost of Discipleship is excellent.
If you're up for some listening, Philip Cary's Luther: Law, Gospel, and Reformation lecture series is an excellent introduction to Lutheran thought and practice. Every once in a while it's on sale, and well worth picking up.
First and foremost, read books that will nourish your soul. If you are not being fed by the Bible and other books, your soul can shrivel and you'll be of no help to anyone.
Get The Pastor: A Memoir and The Contemplative Pastor by Eugene Peterson. This guy can flat out write. I'd also second the Keller votes and put Francis Chan on the list, especially The Forgotten God. Also, the last one I'll put is The Cost of Discipleship by Dietrich Bonhoeffer. Hardcore stuff there.
Anything by Thomas Merton is excellent. Contemplative Prayer and New Seeds of Contemplation can be good starts.
Richard Rohr, Henri Nouwen and Thomas Keating will also be good readings.
Henri Nouwen ([Life of the Beloved](http://www.amazon.com/Life-Beloved-Spiritual-Living-Secular/dp/0824519868), [Return of the Prodigal Son](http://www.amazon.com/Return-Prodigal-Son-Story-Homecoming/dp/0385473079), [Seeds of Hope](http://www.amazon.com/books/dp/0385490496))
Karl Rahner (The Great Church Year, Love of Jesus and the Love of Neighbor)
Thomas Merton ([New Seeds of Contemplation*](http://www.amazon.com/New-Seeds-Contemplation-Thomas-Merton/dp/0811217248))
The best example of contemplation that I've seen is Thomas Merton
Some of these have been mentioned in this thread, but I wanted to make a thorough list, so here goes:
If you would like books on various topics (The Eucharist, Mary, the Sacraments, etc.), let me know and I'd be happy to provide. Also, feel free to PM at any time. :) I'll say an extra prayer for your journey right now!
DK
haha I did it despite Steve Ray trying to convince me not to.
Your 3 purposes for sexuality make a lot of sense - especially in light of proverbs and song of solomon. Thank you very much!
As to your point about the Roman Catholic Church having too narrow a view of sexuality, do you think that is somewhat a result of the influences of gnostic thinking? Throughout my upbringing in studying the saints and R.C.C. teaching, gnosticism seems to pop up over and over again. For example, Augustine's view of sexuality.
If you like to read, please check out
Upon this Rock This book is about the Papacy. & Crossing the Tiber, a Protestant conversion story, which includes a lot of Church history, and quotes from the early Church.
I’d start by doing some research on what the Bible actually says about he’ll ( very very little) .
I’d recommend this book.
https://www.amazon.com/All-Want-Know-About-Hell/dp/1401678300
I'd recommend reading the gospel of Mark, which you can do in a couple of hours. Some people still use bibles in old timey language, like the King James, so you may want to get a modern translation of the New Testament, like the Good News translation.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1585162337/ref=ox_sc_sfl_title_6?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER
Also, check out Meeting Jesus Again for the First Time, by Martin Borg.
http://www.amazon.com/Meeting-Jesus-Again-First-Time/dp/0060609176
My fiance's father is a former pastor from a conservative area of the country who, in the last decade, has undergone a transformation in his belief. Whereas he was once orthodox, doctrinaire, and "institutional," today he is "dealing" with the notion that Jesu, the bible, and changes in Christian doctrine by the Church are historical represent figures produced by human beings as responses to various social, economic, political and cultural circumstances. For many of us, including myself, this has been our position for a long time (disclosure: If theism implies a belief in a supernatural being, I am atheist). He's been reading http://www.amazon.com/Meeting-Jesus-Again-First-Time/dp/0060609176 by Marcus Borg book, which has accelerated his reflections in the direction of possibly atheism. He still works for Youth For Christ, however, and remains a "believer" and follower of Jesus (as he describes himself).
I raise this example because, as it turns out, when I last saw him last month he was confronted by question similar to justjim73, albeit from a different perspective: he's been asked by other pastors to write a sermon that answers: "who is Jesus" and "what is the role of the Church" today. He doesn't know what to do.
Shall he write a sermon rich in fundamental beliefs and orthodox positions? He doesn't believe that anymore. Shall he describe the struggles he's had with both "Jesus" as a transcendental figure and the Church as the worldly institution committed to spreading the gospel? He fears reprimand and excommunication (remember, this is a small community where his colleagues believe he is also a true believer). His "break" with the Church (happened a few years ago; afterwards he went into non-profit, albeit still with YFC) came precisely because he could no longer live with the bookkeeping and recruiting efforts of the Church that sought only to produce converts and not guide spiritual life.
My own view is that the problem is less what the non-religious think of Christianity, about which there are many and varied experiences and opinions, and more about the difficulties of sustaining a conversation when the existence of "religious" groups implies, in today's discourse, the existence of "non-religious" groups. The presupposition here is that both are apparently, completely at odds with each other.
This is the basic presupposition of the topic question, right? If so, it's a false assumption.
My answer to your question is: my views of Jesus and the contemporary Church in the US are generally not pertinent when it comes to trying to start a dialogue with the "religious." Certainly, it is a topic of conversation. But it's not how I build a conversation. Yet it seems that the confrontation of the "religious" with the "non-religious" today has to start there. Why? Why can't we start with economic inequality, for example? Or shared ideals of living a good life? Why begin a conversation with the non-religious by asking them their opinion of Jesus and the Church? Isn't that already, or at least usually, to foreclose how people can have conversations with each other about worldly issues?
>My prayer is constant, throughout the entire day, as I walk and talk and eat and move through my day.
Sounds like the sort of stuff that I did. I practically had this book memorized I read it so often to trying to figure out what I was doing wrong.
This was another
inspireddesperate read. I was so excited by it that I gave classes on it. I expected something to break loose any day for years, kind of like Camping waiting for the end.You mention the heart. That's what hurts when the relationship is one sided. Imagine if I pursued my wife for 38 years while she ignored me to see if I really meant it. I think I'd be considered foolish, and maybe even put in jail for stalking or something.
>he'd more appreciate you yelling your frustrations at him than learning languages or planting churches, as though that would somehow earn you a chance to sit down for 15 minutes with the founder and CEO of Heaven/Earth Ltd.
So why would he hang out with anyone? That was the point of the OP. You think you have a personal relationship, but why? What makes you special enough to hang out with "the founder of Heaven/Earth Ltd.? What was the difference between Jacob and Esau that God hated one and loved the other, especially given that Jacob was a scheming bastard?
You haven't made a biblical case for your specialness. Maybe it is because you belong to the right denomination -- something pentecostal, am I right?
It is interesting that you seem to disparage head knowledge. I had always thought that knowing the bible inside and out was a good thing. I read it devotionally twice a year for 20 years and that doesn't include studying it for school, bible study classes, sermons, and papers. The devotional reading was for giving God an opportunity to speak to me via the word. I couldn't tell if any insights I gained were from him or just from me. The only voice in my head sounded like me.
We used Celebration of Discipline in my Spiritual Formation class. This book provides a foundation for spiritual growth based wholly on scripture. It isn't necessarily a light read but it can be extremely helpful in growing closer to Christ.
www.amazon.com/Celebration-Discipline-Path-Spiritual-Growth/dp/0060628391
Hello, I'm a bit late to this parade (I just heard Dr. Peterson's podcast with Joe Rogan yesterday) but I wanted to weigh in here.
There are a lot of good sources from a variety of Christian viewpoints. Many of the ones already listed are very good, but I don't see anything from my own particular version of Christianity (Eastern Orthodoxy), so I wanted to suggest two resource for you from that perspective as well as another from C.S. Lewis whose words are held dear by most Christians.
The first is a lecture by Fr. John Behr, the current dean of St Vladimir's Orthodox Theological Seminary. He holds Masters of Philosophy and Doctor of Philosophy from Oxford University. This one is on YouTube and is 1.5 hours in length. It is called Death, the Final Frontier.There are a couple of minutes of fluff at the beginning but it starts to really roll into something I think Jordan Peterson fans would enjoy at the 3-minute mark. It is ostensibly about death, but it is a great critique of modern western culture viewed through the lens of liturgical Christianity.
This second is a recording of a lecture provided by a former dean of the same seminary that I think cuts to the heart of what Christianity actually means. It is called "The Word of the Cross" by Rev. Dr. Thomas Hopko and is around two hours total and has been broken into four individual sections by an Orthodox podcast publisher:
Part 1
[Part 2] (http://www.ancientfaith.com/specials/hopko_lectures/the_word_of_the_cross_part_2)
Part 3
Part 4
Lastly, I would direct you toward the writings of C.S. Lewis. When I was a young teenage atheist, his arguments were very persuasive for me and have been very popular amongst most Christians. I know many Protestants, Orthodox, and Catholics who have all found their first theological footing in Lewis' work. Mere Christianity is probably the best source to steer you toward, but I think his best ideas can be found in The Abolition of Man, The Great Divorce, and Till We Have Faces: A Myth Retold. Since you've professed a preference for audio content, I will point you toward a YouTube playlist of the series of BBC radio broadcast lectures that C.S. Lewis gave during WWII that were the core of what later became Mere Christianity.
I'm tempted to also suggest that you read Thomas Merton, Dietrich Bonhoeffer, Kirkegaard, Dostoyevsky, St. John Chrysostom, St. Thomas Aquinas, and many, many others. Enjoy your journey!
> [I] regard Jesus as an enlightened (divine) being the same as a Bodhisattva. Can you make any suggestions for books that will help me to undertand more about Jesus' teachings from this perspective?
I think you'll struggle to understand Jesus from that perspective. A lot of his teachings just won't make sense. You'd be better off approaching him from the perspective of 2nd Temple Judaism, which NT Wright is quite good at explaining http://www.amazon.com/Simply-Christian-Christianity-Makes-Sense/dp/0061920622/
http://www.amazon.com/Simply-Christian-Christianity-Makes-Sense/dp/0061920622/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1302850419&sr=8-5
Maybe I'm crazy, but Simply Christian by N.T. Wright is, in my opinion, a beautifully composed book explaining the Christian faith. It's in the same vein as C.S. Lewis' Mere Christianity in that Wright doesn't deal with anything denominational. He merely explains why we Christians have become so and the beauty of the beliefs that comprise the core of our faith.
Here's a link to it on Amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/Simply-Christian-Christianity-Makes-Sense/dp/0061920622/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1374349814&sr=8-1&keywords=simply+christian
It's a pretty short read, especially because the language and style are simple.
I hope that all works out for you and your girlfriend for the glory of God's Kingdom, man.
P.S. He also expounds on three different lenses through which to view God's relation to the world. The first two he is trying to refute, them being pantheism/panentheism and dualism. The third, which he propones as more accurate to the Christian/Judaic faiths, is that Heaven and Earth are not the same, as the pantheist might posit, or that they are completey separate (so says the dualist), but that they are somehow closely intertwined. Anyways, I like this book. You should check it out even for yourself.
Simply Christian by NT Wright.
From the back cover:
Why is justice fair? Why are so many people pursuing spirituality? Why do we crave relationship? And why is beauty so beautiful? N. T. Wright argues that each of these questions takes us into the mystery of who God is and what he wants from us. For two thousand years Christianity has claimed to answer these mysteries, and this renowned biblical scholar and Anglican bishop shows that it still does today. Like C. S. Lewis did in his classic Mere Christianity, Wright makes the case for Christian faith from the ground up, assuming that the reader is starting from ground zero with no predisposition to and perhaps even some negativity toward religion in general and Christianity in particular. His goal is to describe Christianity in as simple and accessible, yet hopefully attractive and exciting, a way as possible, both to say to outsides You might want to look at this further, and to say to insiders You may not have quite understood this bit clearly yet.
Edited to add: I see that someone else suggested this. I guess I should have read through suggestions first before suggesting a book.
2nd edit: If you do read this, I would love to hear an atheist's perspective on it.
For The Bible Tells Me So by Peter Enns
Inspiration and Incarnation also by Peter Enns
You might want to ask Peter Enns in his AMA here at 3:00 EST (roughly one hour from now). He just released a book which indirectly addresses this question: http://www.amazon.com/The-Bible-Tells-Defending-Scripture/dp/0062272020/
If you truly want an interesting perspective, check out this book by Peter Enns.
I bought the book after listening to this podcast which is specifically relevant to your question, and also has the author voicing his opinions.
Both offer valuable insights.
I came to accept this more historical critical view on scripture after reading and being intrigued by Peter Enns' "The Bible Tells Me So". He does a good job in there explaining how the fundamentalist/literalist perspective doesn't fit in well with our current understanding of science or recent archaeological findings. Enns' book is a pretty easy read so I would definitely give it a go if you want an easy introduction to integrating modern academic findings with the big ideas of scripture. Previously I was in the Calvary Chapel literalist/fundamentalist camp but had trouble integrating evolution and the accounts of the Old Testament conflicting with archaeology.
I think you make some good points there. I just want to add that a lot of Christians have said that its ok not to have absolute belief in Jesus. Most people only have some. That's why there is a classic prayer, "I believe, Lord - help my unbelief." I believe enough to pray for help, and that's the best I've got.
For the innerancy stuff - I would recommend very very highly Pete Enns' book The Bible Tells Me So. It's about how the bible has all kinds of errors and contradictions, but maybe God's ok with that, maybe "inspired" doesn't mean "without error," and we can be Christians anyway.
I had similar doubts. Peters Enns book: The Bible Tells Me So was exactly what I needed. I suggest you check it out. You can read a first couple of pages (which made me end up purchasing it) before you decide if it's for you.
https://www.amazon.com/Bible-Tells-Me-Defending-Scripture/dp/0062272039
Historically, there was no genocide. Of the 12 cities, there was evidence that most of them were already empty when the Israelites arrived. Citation
If you want to have a productive conversation about the problems of the bible, you reallyyy need to read this book first. You're making a number of critical errors, assumptions, and projections about the old + new testaments, particularly about the ancient tribal people who pieced it together 2,500+ years ago (a people, mind you, with an incredibly limited world view and knowledge base). Until you understand the full context of the people who wrote the thing, you can't really start an effective dialogue about the issues you have with it.
Grudem teaches with care for Christ and the Word, and it comes off as more than just a cold exegesis. I would recommend his "Bible Doctrine" if you don't want to delve into the big bad boy thick textbook that SysTheo is. It's a concise, shorter version of the same book.
http://www.amazon.com/Bible-Doctrine-Wayne-Grudem/dp/0310222338/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1319825069&sr=8-1
Actually that's "Bible Doctrine" and "Christian Beliefs" is the concise version of that. In other words, it's the condensed condensed Systematic Theology
I'm taking this out of my copy of Bible Doctrine:
Out of all the creatures God made, only one creature, man, is said to be made "in the image of God."
What does that mean?
We may use the following definition: The fact that man is in the image of God means that man is like God and represents God.
When God says, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness" (Gen 1:26), the meaning is that God plans to make a creature similar to himself. Both the Hebrew word for "image" (tselem) and the Hebrew word for "likeness" (demut) refer to something that is simlar but not identical to the thing it represents or is an "image" of. The word image can also be used of something that represents something else.
...
Which leads us to the fall, which distorts God's image on us but not completely.
There's more to all this, if you want me to type it up as well.
I recommend the following book on sharing your faith by Gregory Koukl: Tactics by Gregory Koukl
It teaches you tactics on how to have conversations that will as he puts it "get a rock in their shoe" aka give them something to think about.
One of the things I had to realize is that God is the one who changes the heart, all I have to do is talk/converse on a subject of their choosing. This takes a huge mental/spiritual weight off every encounter God blesses me with.
More often than not things can be diverted in profitable directions just by listening, thinking, and responding in a conversational manner.
Been there. But I honestly came to a point where I decided that I wanted truth more than comfort. The kind of "faith" you are describing—one afraid of evidence—is not the kind described in the scriptures anyway. If it's just blind faith or hopeful wishing, it needs to be abandoned. The Christian faith has been a belief based on evidence from the very beginning.
The moment you admit to yourself that this could all be false is terrifying and disorienting, but it it the beginning of biblical faith. The truth claims of Christianity have stood up to two thousand years of criticism. Every argument against it has been answered many times over.
Before you deciding what to think about the issue, I strongly encourage you to learn how to think. I mean no offense, it's just that critical thinking and logic skills are hardly taught in schools anymore and are not valued by many in the church. There are arguments for both views, atheism and theism, but you need to have the skills to determine which arguments are sound and which are poor. Honestly, at least 90% of the arguments I have heard offered against belief in God are terribly poor arguments—or not even real arguments at all, and it pains me to see people swayed by rhetoric rather than argument.
So before you start getting into the arguments pro and con, make sure you have the tools to find the truth—whatever it may be. Learn the difference between inductive and deductive arguments, learn about what makes an argument valid and sound, learn about the informal logical fallacies and how they are different than formal fallacies, learn about how to fit complex arguments together and how to identify hidden assumptions.
Once you have a basic understanding of how to reason well, start looking into some good apologetic resources and seeing how those tools are used to answer objections to belief. Once you have some practical experience using reason, then you will be much better prepared to explore refutations and rebuttals to apologetics. By that point, I think you will see that the refutations aren't always sound, and that there are answers to the refutations as well. One more thing to keep in mind is an opponents may be able to provide an alternative explanation, but that is not at all the same as showing that you he has the most reasonable position.
Here are some resources I found useful:
Thinking About God by Greg Ganssle can get you started in the right direction as far as explaining the basics of how and why logical argument works.
The argument tutorials provided by AusThink are the best I have found for evaluating and forming more complex arguments—pay special attention to learning and understanding the "holding hands" and "rabbit" rules. They have been invaluable to me when it has come time to face very tough arguments. Using those tools I have seen that many of them are not at all as well formed as they seem.
Tactics by Greg Koukl is an excellent book for learning how to talk with those who disagree with you in a gracious and productive way.
> What should I say when professors tell me outright that "Christian values are bigoted?" Like what. How does one respond to that kind of accusation?
I'd read this:
https://www.amazon.com/Tactics-Game-Discussing-Christian-Convictions/dp/0310282926/
Excellent guide to dealing with that kind of nonsense. Basically go on the offensive but using questions as a way of revealing the errors upon which his argument rests.
To feel God's presence: faith = action. If you want to move forward in your spiritual journey then move forward. That's the scripturally supported way to feel God's presence. This modern notion of going to a building 1-hour a week with the expectation of a Matrix-esque instant download of peace, comfort, safety and happiness is what is called "cheap grace".
Saving faith is inextricably tied to action and discipleship is engagement. I suggest reading The Cost of Discipleship by Dietrich Bonhoeffer. If you don't want to buy it then I'm sure your town Library has a copy.
Bonhoeffer coined the phrase "cheap grace" which he said was grace without discipleship. The most powerful times I feel God's presence, when it literally overflows within me, is when I'm being a good steward – putting faith into action by serving.
You're getting a lot of pushback here. I don't want to stumble into an argument here, but I would point you to Bonhoeffer's modern classic The Cost of Discipleship, which touches on this topic.
I found this a good primer on discipleship.
https://www.amazon.com/Cost-Discipleship-Dietrich-Bonhoeffer/dp/0684815001?SubscriptionId=AKIAILSHYYTFIVPWUY6Q&tag=duckduckgo-d-20&linkCode=xm2&camp=2025&creative=165953&creativeASIN=0684815001
I recommend a book called "The Cost of Discipleship" by Deitrich Bonheoffer. It's theology is first rate, and it will bring you to that certain and undeniable and inescapable "edge" of Jesus' call, where the decisive step is taken, which is not a work but a simple act of obedience at the outer limit of human freedom. The choice is still your own however, if you want to take on Jesus' yoke and be joined to Him in fellowship, or not. If you read it carefully, then you will come into the understanding and comprehension that's evading you, or that you've been evading perhaps even because of what Bonheoffer argues, very effectively, is a "cheap grace" prevalent in modern contemporary Christendom.
It puts forward a powerful argument that every "Christian" ought to be made aware of, so that they will understand in no uncertain terms the defense that they've unwittingly put up against having an authentic experience of being in fellowship with Jesus as a domain of true life and all possibility.
The arguments that we put up in the back of our mind to avoid obedience to His call are most absurd and pathetic, so be forewarned!
What i've discerned from it is that there's a very compassionate and uncompromising nature to what Jesus is asking at the threshold where worlds collide, which is only gracious on His part, but that it also contains a certain stalwart mirth and charm which refuses to budge from His center of joy and happiness that requires true faith in Him to be appreciated. He's a real charmer that Jesus, but his reason and logic is indomitable.
There's a new argument here that I've not encountered anywhere else that might even be sufficient to cause a prior atheist to courageously drop all his prior conceptions and be the first out of the boat to take Jesus' hand of friendship and love.
I would highly suggest The Cost of Discipleship by Dietrich Bonhoeffer Its an awesome book. Aside from the Bible its one of two books I like best.
Buy and read this book: http://www.amazon.com/New-Seeds-Contemplation-Thomas-Merton/dp/0811217248/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1418926593&sr=1-1&keywords=new+seeds+of+contemplation
It's very lovely.
> How would you suggest I go about striving to live a Christ-like life while at the same time remembering that my salvation is through grace?
How would you suggest I go about striving to live a Christ-like life while at the same time remembering that my salvation is through grace?
Trying to earn God's love is THE problem. EVERY Christian I have ever known has had to struggle with this, and I do everyday. It was the problem of the pharisees, and according to Spurgeon, popery. Christianity is all about the heart. As your heart has already been changed and is sensitive to the things of God thus your desire to be Christ-like and Christ pleasing the following is for you. For those who are not in a saving relationship with Jesus, the following will not apply.
There is a Martin Luther quote that I can't find right now (ugh!) that goes something like this: "What makes us so arrogant as to think there is something we can do to add to the sufficiency of the blood of God's own Son!"
There are a few different fronts to the war. One is that you have to get a working definition of what Christian freedom means, and specifically what it means to you and what it looks like in your life. Hint: Do you have the freedom to sin and still be loved? Does God’s grace cover first degree, premeditated sin, or not?
I firmly believe until one understands grace and forgiveness in the forensic (law language) sense, you can’t get a whole lot better. It’s the doctrines of freedom that become the places you can stand when it gets dark. Dark, like when you have blown it so bad that you begin to doubt your salvation.This, as an aside, is an excellent reason to get baptized. It gives us another place to stand.
I find that if we obsess about our sin we sin more. If we obsess about Jesus and His UNCONDITIONAL love for us we may or may not get better... but we will find out getting better wasn’t the point... EVER. Being His is the point.
Front Two: I suggest studying your identity in Christ. These guys are really good at this
https://www.ficm.org/
“Victory over the Darkness” is from them and is very helpful in obtaining freedom from all sorts of spiritual bondage, but for me it is only part of the equation. It gave me some of the the keys to understanding myself and even my relationship with God, but it didn’t explain God as well as I needed. Some, probably most of my issues with trying to earn God’s love are rooted in the conditional nature of the love I received from my dad growing up. I came from a fairly dysfunctional background. Therefore, the ideas and concepts I projected on God were from my relationship with my dad and it messed up my relationship with my Heavenly Father.
I found this book to give me great insights into who God really is. Check it out and tell me what you think.
(In case the embedded link is inop.
http://www.amazon.com/Delighting-Trinity-Introduction-Christian-Faith/dp/0830839836)
Front Three: For me is learning to recognize and accept God’s love.
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Christianity-Christian-Living-1401/accept-Gods-love.htm
The worksheet referenced in that article is available at https://www.ficm.org/ also under “free stuff”.
Once again, for me, I found that I really needed to understand love. I had to learn what love was, what it looked like, what being loved felt like... pretty much everything. I had walled off my emotional self so far, in an effort at self protection, that I was pretty much isolated. The isolation causes pain and numbing agents abound. Alcohol. porn, false persona(s) etc. Anything to keep me from having to spend time with myself as I fell into the trap of rejection made worse by self rejection. Enter another of my favorite quotes,
“I never liked jazz music because jazz music doesn't resolve. But I was outside the Bagdad Theater in Portland one night when I saw a man playing the saxophone. I stood there for fifteen minutes, and he never opened his eyes.
After that I liked jazz music.
Sometimes you have to watch somebody love something before you can love it yourself. It is as if they are showing you the way.
I used to not like God because God didn't resolve. But that was before any of this happened.”
― Donald Miller
Blue Like Jazz: Nonreligious Thoughts on Christian Spirituality
I had to look at the cross and see God love me. I had to watch others love and affirm me, because I didn’t know how to love myself. I had to read about what a loving relationship with Jesus looks like (see Brennan Manning’s Abba’s Child and Ragamuffin Gospel, Henri Nouwen's Life of the Beloved).
I also had to find out what a man is supposed to be and be about. I’m sure you are familiar with John Eldredge. While Wild at Heart is a classic, his, Way of the Wild Heart really helped me and still does.
So, that’s it really. Run to Jesus! Get loved, in real and meaningful ways and then take that into the world and just be who you are... a wounded healer. Your walk will be in freedom and you will be like Christ. In more ways than you can possibly imagine now. Your wounds even when healed will be a place of strength though now they are a weakness. Gee, I wonder where we heard that before? Oh, and don’t worry, when your story is one of recovery.. it keeps you humble.
Numbers 6:24-26
New King James Version (NKJV)
24 “The Lord bless you and keep you;
25 The Lord make His face shine upon you,
And be gracious to you;
26 The Lord lift up His countenance upon you,
And give you peace.”’
Blessings to you my Brother
Have you read "Delighting in the Trinity" by Michael Reeves (link below)? If you say the *only* thing distinguishing them is one attribute, you sound like you are saying they have a single mind, in which case there is no possibility for relationship. Yet Reeves and many others would say that there is a loving relationship between the Father and Son and Spirit. In your formulation, how would you describe this loving relationship?
​
​
(https://www.amazon.com/Delighting-Trinity-Introduction-Christian-Faith/dp/0830839836/ref=sr_1_1?crid=30NFYTAK13Y5D&keywords=delighting+in+the+trinity+michael+reeves&qid=1562016286&s=books&sprefix=delighting+i%2Caps%2C115&sr=1-1)
Bible Reading:
Most important thing when choosing a Bible: pick the one you'll read. It doesn't matter if you prefer it because of how the cover makes you feel, if that will make you read it, then that's fine.
Most issues with translations only kick in when you find passages that are hard to understand and you want a sense of what the original writer was saying. Then something like the NLT may be less useful, because it paraphrases more. The one thing I'd say is that I wouldn't recommend a full paraphrase version like The Message, because it has a lot of the writer's own interpretation. It has its value, but not for regular study.
If you want an easy to access but still good for Bible study translation, then the NIV is a widely used version. With your background in mind, howevr, the ESV might be usable for you. It's a widely respected translation that is considered good for serious study because it gets closer to the original language than the NIV, with some sacrifice for ease of reading. It's not something I'd necessarily recommend for someone new to Christianity, but given that you grew up in a Christian family, you might not find the vocabulary as daunting.
Regarding annotations: feel free to skip them. They are intended to aid understanding, but are not part of God's word. Therefore they are not essential reading, although if you want help understanding a passage they may be useful. If you find the length of the Bible challenging, you may want to consider a Bible reading plan - it will give you a structured approach that just makes it all feel a bit more manageable. If you want to manage the whole thing in a year (4 chapters a day), then try For The Love of God by Don Carson. If that's too much you could give one of these a try. One popular approach is to just alternate reading Old Testament and New Testament books (e.g. read through Matthew, then Genesis, then Mark, then Exodus etc), and then, because the New Testament is shorter, starting over while you go through the 2nd half of the Old Testament. That one's good because it doesn't matter how much you read each day to fit the plan. But reading plans are just a tool, if you want to just sit and read, that's also great, reading whole books in one go has its benefits even. Whatever works for you.
Other resources:
There are many, many Christian books available. But if you want a couple of easy recommendations try:
[Crossing the Tiber](http://www.amazon.com/Crossing-Tiber-Evangelical-Protestants-Historical/dp/0898705770 "Also available for Kindle!"), by Stephen K. Ray. It's very well researched; sometimes the footnotes and references take up most of the page!
dessinemoiunmouton referenced this elsewhere in the thread, and I agree: [Faith of the Early Fathers](http://www.amazon.com/Faith-Early-Fathers-Three--Set/dp/0814610250/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1320271030&sr=1-1 "Also available for Kindle!"), by Jurgens. It's a three-volume set, and best used as a reference, instead of a straight-read. Of immense value is the doctrinal index, which lists various elements of theology, and then points you to the relevant historical writings!
If you really want to learn a lot about the differences, go to YouTube and start listening to Steve Ray and read his book Crossing the Tiber. I have a friend who grew up in the Church of the Bible and they switched the Catholicism. He said this book along with listening to Steve Ray, and another book called Catholicism and Fundamentalism by Karl Keating really helped him understand Catholicism when he was still surrounded by Protestant friends.
Steve Ray was formerly this type of Evangelical/baptist. He is now a devout apologist for the Catholic church. He wrote a book entitled "Crossing the Tiber." If you read this then you will learn the points that likely can get your type of Christian friend thinking outside of his very comfortable and judgmental box. Have fun.
A link to a used book sales summary on amazon: https://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/0898705770/ref=tmm_pap_used_olp_sr?ie=UTF8&condition=used&qid=&sr=
There are tons of books with evidence that the events in the Bible actually took place. A book I just bought, but haven’t gotten the chance to crack into yet, is Evidence That Demands a Verdict by Josh McDowell. From what I’ve heard, it provides some super concrete evidence for Biblical events. I can’t wait to crack into it when I get home in a few days.
Thank you for giving me some insight into your story and background. And I definitely do understand the concern regarding emotionalism as a basis for truth. I agree with you wholeheartedly - at the end of the day, emotion is a terrible standard by which we judge truth.
There are several intellectual and reasoned arguments for the faith. Jesus Christ was a real man. Several hundred eyewitnesses saw Him risen from the dead. There are excellent resources out there that address the historical facts and claims of Jesus. For example:
However, as a former Mormon, I'm sure you are aware of these resources and arguments.
At the end of the day however, salvation in Jesus isn't found in intellectual arguments. It's not found in reasoning and logical deduction. It is found in a personal relationship with a living and breathing God.
I know as a fact that Jesus is real and Jesus is God. I don't say this based purely on logic. I say it based on my experience. I have personally witnessed unquestionable miracles at the name of Jesus. I have seen incurable medical conditions disappear immediately at the name of Jesus. I have witnessed dead limbs come to life during prayer in the name of Jesus. I have trusted in God's Word which says things like "God will provide for all of your needs" in times when I had no money in the bank account - and God worked miracle after miracle. In one situation, I calculated that I would run out of money in one month but said, "God I trust you". And literally that second I received an email. My university sent me an email saying, "we billed you incorrectly - here's $1,100".
I understand the skepticism to this type of personal experience. Even many Christians doubt that God is real and knowable in an experiential way. But don't take my word for it - here is a medically documented case study in which 24 deaf and blind people were healed immediately during prayer. These are medical doctors and PhD researchers doing scientific studies to see if this is true: it is. It's dense academic writing, but the bottom line is that at the name of Jesus the deaf are hearing and the blind are seeing.
So my challenge remains. I have never once seen God not be faithful to His Word. I have never seen a bridge that Jesus won't cross to bring His children home. Jesus loves you. Jesus wants you to accept His death on the cross and resurrection from the grave as your only hope for salvation. Jesus wants to speak to you right now and give you a life of adventure. I think a really good place to start is this: are you open to Jesus appearing to you in a dream, vision, or very strong impression and telling you that He is the only way? Do you believe that if Jesus is God, then He can do this? A simple prayer to God like this can express your openness:
"God, I really want to know You. Jesus, if You are God, please show me. I am open to whatever way You want to speak. If you're real, I must know. If you're God, I must know."
I know of a Muslim man who prayed this prayer for 3 days straight while fasting. At the end of the 3 days he came to my missionary contact and said that Jesus appeared to him. My contact asked the Muslim what Jesus was like. And the Muslim began describing Jesus straight from the Bible: "He is the image of the invisible God. It was like I was seeing the exact representation of His being!" So this stuff is real - the only question is: How open and hungry are you?
> Nope. Theories are tested against evidence.
Once the theories have been made, sure. But the hypotheses that are made to describe new phenomena, or to better describe what was once believed to be fully understood when new evidence is presented, still comes from reason and thinking critically on the subject until such experiments can be designed to test said theories. For example, the direct detection of gravitational waves was not accomplished until the LIGO experiment in 2016, even though we were holding to the existence of such long before then on account of Einstein's work. To say that this was the first time that Einstein's proposition of the existence of gravitational waves was challenged, simply because it was the first time that it was experimentally shown, is ludicrous.
I've not yet had the chance to read The Big Picture, but I would like to point out even from the brief quote that you provided a fascinating aspect of the nature of the world and indeed the universe that we are coming to appreciate more and more: how little we truly know. Imagine the entirety of human knowledge as a sphere, where the extent of human knowledge is contained by the sphere, that which humans have not yet learned being outside the sphere, and the surface of the sphere representing that which we know that we don't know. As the sphere expands, i.e. we learn more about ourselves, the world, and the universe around us, so too does that border of what we know that we don't know, and the more we realize we don't yet truly understand. For example, let's look at flight. The earliest scientific consensus on the matter was that an airfoil must be shaped just so in order to maximize the Bernoulli effect and generate lift via differentiated airflow. In many cases the classic airfoil pattern is still used, but you will be hard-pressed to find any modern fighter aircraft that still hold to that design over a delta-wing or extended delta-wing configuration. Instead, most if not all high-speed aircraft these days generate lift more from angle of attack than just from the Bernoulli effect. My point is that while there is much that we have learned about how nature does work on its deepest levels, there is still much more that we do not yet know, e.g. an adequate phenomenon (or phenomena, if such turns out to be the case) to describe how quantum acausality seems to uniformly cause at the macro scale effects which can be described causally. To borrow your baseball metaphor, since we know that the universe itself doesn't play baseball at its fundamental core, then why does all of the non-baseball-playing end up looking like baseball when we look at the big picture?
> I didn't say it was unknowable. I said I didn't know.
I would urge you then to branch out beyond just the humanistic works that you are familiar with. A valid criticism of all humans is that they prefer to listen to the voices that tell them what they want to hear, and that is no less true of theists than it is of atheists and agnostics. If your desire is for truth and not just for science, then I would recommend reading the works of people who hold to their beliefs because of the evidence, rather than just in spite of it. Josh McDowell's Evidence that Demands a Verdict is one place to start.
Of course intuitive physics is insufficient. We see that in the existence of gravitational waves which I mentioned above. The point is that "scientific consensus" is continually changing as we learn more about existence around us, and discover new phenomena, e.g. the double-slit experiment, that shows us how much more complicated the universe really is than we imagined.
I've read Russell's "Why I'm not a Christian" and found it thoroughly unconvincing and fraught with error. Specifically from the passage you cited, let's look at his assertion that
> There is no reason to suppose that the world had a beginning at all. The idea that things must have a beginning is really due to the poverty of our imagination.
The problem here is that the very same science he urges us to pursue in his closing paragraph agrees that the universe, and indeed the Earth as a part of it, did have a beginning. Granted, we can forgive Russell his oversight since the experiments that proved the existence of the cosmic microwave background radiation wasn't proven until the '60s, but that experimental evidence still puts to death Russell's theory that the universe had no beginning. After all, if we are to test theories against evidence, then the evidence is not in favor of Mr. Russell.
As for the rest of that piece, Russell routinely waffles between making an assertion about Christ and then relying on a worldview that is inconsistent with the worldview that Christ preached to disprove Christ's statements. His methodology is akin to setting up arguments for why the tooth fairy doesn't exist, and then showing these arguments to be fallacious because he knows that the tooth fairy does exist on account widely attested reports from children around the world that their teeth disappeared from beneath their pillows. He is correct that not all those who call themselves Christians do in fact follow Christ, but he is thoroughly mistaken to judge the words of Christ as though He were a man, when He makes it abundantly clear that He is God.
> And yet we haven't found it yet. That is, in all the laws of physics that we have found so far there doesn't seem to be any distinction of the past and the future.
Right, and once again we have a theory that has not yet been born out with evidence or experimentation. For one so dismissive of theories that are argued before there is evidence to support them, I'm surprised you put stock in the works of theoretical physicists, whose very domain is by definition that which has not yet been proven. But there's that word again, yet. Feynman recognizes the inconsistency between what we know to be implied by the laws of physics as we currently understand them and what we know experimentally based on our ability to bear out the results of these theories in the real world. I would argue that he was keenly aware of that boundary layer between what we know and our increasing knowledge of what we know that we don't know.
The existence of God doesn't have immediate evidence like a cancer diagnosis, but that doesn't mean there isn't any evidence for God. Christianity is not a blind faith.
https://www.amazon.com/Evidence-That-Demands-Verdict-Life-Changing/dp/1401676707/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?ie=UTF8&qid=1543478665&sr=8-1-spons&keywords=evidence+that+demands+a+verdict&psc=1
https://www.amazon.com/Cold-Case-Christianity-Homicide-Detective-Investigates/dp/1434704696/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1543478756&sr=8-1&keywords=cold+case+christianity+by+j.+warner+wallace
Both of those authors were atheists or agnostics until they took the time to examine the evidence for the claims of Christianity. People like that don't completely change their life just because someone told them 'Yes, there is a God.' Wallace was a cold-case homicide detective and mocked Christians he knew.
>When I finally examined the evidence fairly using the tools I learned as a detective, I found it difficult to deny, especially if I hoped to retain my respect for the way evidence is utilized to determine truth. I found the evidence for Christianity as convincing as any cold-case I’d ever investigated. . . . I’m not a Christian because it “works” for me. I had a life prior to Christianity that seemed to be working just fine, and my life as a Christian hasn’t always been easy. I’m a Christian because it is true. I’m a Christian because I want to live in a way that reflects the truth. I’m a Christian because my high regard for the truth leaves me no alternative.
I'm not saying you should believe just because I say so or because a few authors write a few books about it. But doesn't it seem like there's enough evidence that you should take a seriously? If you're right about this, then you can move on with your life like nothing happened, and you would have more ammo if any other annoying Christians tried to convert you. But if you're wrong, then your eternal destiny hangs in the balance.
​
There are countless people to listen to
​
youtube these names:
Allen Parr https://www.youtube.com/user/thebeatagp/videos
John MacArthur https://www.youtube.com/user/JohnMacArthurGTY/videos
John Piper https://www.youtube.com/user/desiringGod/videos
Ravi Zacharia
Wretched (hosted by Todd Friel) https://www.youtube.com/user/WretchedNetwork/videos
Dr.Michael Youssef https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCNp0fugFYw_s19nG-pJ6P0Q
Pastor Greg Laurie https://www.youtube.com/user/HarvestTV/videos
​
Ryan Reeves (For historical theology)
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCrI5U0R293u9uveijefKyAA/videos
​
Apologetics (for the tough questions, look up these names)
William Lane Craig
(look up his debates and check out this channel https://www.youtube.com/user/ReasonableFaithOrg/videos )
Sean Mcdowell https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyyuVmNDPmo
(Sean McDowell has some solid advice regarding homosexuality)
Alvin Plantinga
Peter van Inwagen
John Lennox
https://www.youtube.com/user/CloserToTruth1/videos
Josh McDowell
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wq-ZFG3lTiA
https://www.amazon.com/Evidence-That-Demands-Verdict-Life-Changing/dp/1401676707
Thomas Aquinas
C S Lewis https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgwq09sIpLQ
Cornelius Van Til
John Gerstner
John M. Frame https://www.amazon.com/Apologetics-Glory-God-John-Frame/dp/0875522432
I'm glad you are open to re-studying it! Definitely don't take my word for it.
I think you'll find the annihilationist view squares most readily with judgment language. And, I have found, the reconciliationist view squares most readily with what God has revealed about his character and will. In no case to I find the ECT view offering a more compelling reading of judgment passages or God passages, with the possible exception of the Revelation mention that the devil, false prophet, and beast may suffer an eternally painful fate. But even there I see annihilationism having strong footing.
I strongly recommend this book. I found it very fair. Perhaps a bit harsh on ECT, but I think mostly because it is hoping to open an evangelical to considering other views. Each view is defended and attacked, mostly from scriptural grounds, with some logic and church history thrown in for good measure. I also love how he closes the book: At the end of the day, the point is not to figure out hell but to follow Jesus, and not to evangelize to save people from hell but instead to bring them into right worship of Jesus, because Jesus deserves more worshippers.
>I don't really know if there's a god
A really excellent little book I can recommend is More Than a Carpenter, by Josh & Sean McDowell. On that Amazon link, the first review is by someone who was raised as a Catholic, which you might relate with. I hope you find this helpful in reconnecting with God; having Him as your anchor helps when your life is a stormy sea.
Infinite regress is a problem because you just keep pushing the problem one level further. Take for example, the World Turtle of Hinduism. The World rests on the World Turtle. What does the World Turtle rest on? An even larger Turtle. What does that even larger Turtle rest on? Another even larger Turtle. And on it continues. What holds up these Turtles?
Circular reasoning is when you make two statements that depend on one another for their veracity. It is similar to infinite regress in that what was sought (justification of the first statement) is ultimately grounded in the first statement (which was never justified, so no justification was ever actually done).
It usually isn't quite as obvious as this and is hidden with a few steps.
A common example in Christianity is:
The Bible is true because God says so. How do we know God says the Bible is true? God said it in the Bible!
(This is a bad argument. The Bible is true, but not because of this argument.)
We've moved well past your original question and are now in the realm of general philosophy and structure of sound argumentation. While I am glad to answer your questions, you would be better served if you seek out some introductory books or courses in philosophy or logic. If you have questions about Christianity, you are always welcome to post them here in the subreddit. (After doing some homework! A well-researched question always garners better answers.)
While there is a wealth of good resources online, I would highly recommend finding a class or philosophy group to discuss things face-to-face. Philosophy gets deep very quick and when you are face-to-face with someone, you can simply ask "What do you mean by that?" and get further explanation right then. With a book, you don't get that luxury. (Not saying to avoid books, but merely augment books with real conversation.)
Non-mobile:
^That's ^why ^I'm ^here, ^I ^don't ^judge ^you. ^PM ^/u/xl0 ^if ^I'm ^causing ^any ^trouble. ^WUT?
I thought Enns did a great job in this book putting the issue into the context of ancient writers telling a certain story which would have made sense to them.
A trusted source I go to daily is John Piper's ministry, Desiring God. (www.desiringgod.org.) Mr. Piper is theologically sound in my opinion and clearly loves the Lord. He maintains a heaviness about him, almost as if he carries a burden to help others love Christ more dearly.
He and his team reassure me, edify me, provoke me to think deeper, follow more closely, and in general help me cultivate a stronger love for the Lord, daily.
I am currently reading Desiring God by Mr. Piper
https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/1601423101/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1481574814&sr=8-1&pi=SY200_QL40&keywords=desiring+god&dpPl=1&dpID=41JpAZeSpAL&ref=plSrch
But another one that might be just as applicable would be When I Don't Desire God by the same author.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/1433543176/ref=pd_aw_fbt_14_img_2?ie=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=WYJ2YRD6WW39FQ3SXD0J
"Ask... seek... and knock. And all things will be given to you as well." (Matthew 7:7-12 and Matthew 6:33.)
God bless!
You have reached the very foundational elements of the faith that are a very large part of why I am a christian, or at least remained a christian once i sought out what the bible had to say about these exact questions.
So philosophically or more so existentially, the truth of why or what it all means has to be an open playing field so to speak. Fatalism, Nihilism or forms of Pessimistic thought have some implications that seem unpleasant or off putting to some, but ultimately hold water within their own logical frame work. Just because an idea is initially off putting does not make it wrong. The difference between those schools of thought vs. Christianity is that they are not built on a foundation upward, but rather a foundation is kind of the conclusion drawn out from an evolving argument. Christianity has a much higher burden in terms of it's foundational consistency.
Instead of being the product of reasoning, Christianity is a product of ancient documents ranging in literary style from history, poetry, theology, personal letters, and prophesy. Out of those documents a cohesive understanding of the universe and the existential impact of that understanding form the religion. That means the documents have to be the source and need to have not changed over the years to support new philosophies. (at least if you're rational)
So if Christianity is true, then the best way to test it would be to examine the most accurate understanding of these ancient manuscripts alone. That's everything from fields of archeology, historical and textual criticism to (what we are touching on in this thread) doctrinal and theological cohesiveness. Do these ancient manuscripts actually form a cohesive philosophy, without the aid of reasoning from a foundation outside of the documents? Also the documents examined have to be the most original copies of these documents along with the most accurate understanding of the way the original authors and readers would have understood them?
It's no easy task and definitely not something to exhaust on reedit. I hope i've given you a better understanding of some deep theological ramifications of biblical christianity and the kind of philosophical impact they have on hypothetical questions. I will now answer your questions, and the answers will no doubt seem trite and unhelpful. But i think i've reached the end of what i can say to a stranger on the internet, having no clue what background you have in biblical study and no idea where to start:
>So the point of Christianity is to glorify God? And if you fail to do this you suffer in hell for an eternity? This seems like a rather conceited concept does it not?
yes it does seem like that within the framework of human interaction and affections. So the way this idea works is not something to understand within the framework of human interaction and affections. God is not human and so again, it's an open playing field. The question is, does the answers the bible gives make any sense?
>So god is willing to punish those who have absolutely no control over whether they survive long enough to reach an age where they could even possibly understand Christianity? Or do you mean he will only punish the babies that would have never become christian?
I have no idea if either of those are true but the plausibility that they remotely could be is built off the theology (a study of the nature and character of god) in the bible. The biblical documents do not flinch in their explanations of seemingly paradoxical ideas. Paradoxical ideas crop up everywhere in the search for understanding meaning, morals, or truth in reality, it's up to you to judge what you think about the answers the bible gives.
>So god is responsible for saving you from a punishment he himself created? The way you depict it makes it sound like what you do is irrelevant in regards to being saved, by this reasoning, is there even a point to try and do ethical actions, since regardless of what you do, you are already saved or damned.
I can defiantly say "trying to do ethical actions" has nothing to do with being saved or dammed. And as far as the seeming paradox of god creating the punishment (what exactly this punishment is is debated between christians) that he himself saves you from? The ultimate purpose is that he gets more glory if he did it this way then just created beings already perfect and ready for eternity with him.
_
Some book ideas about what I talking about.
Desiring God: Meditations of a Christian Hedonist answers how God's Glory works for our benefit from the bible.
The Reason for God answers some of the seemingly off-puting or paradoxical ramifications of biblical theology.
Start by reading this:
Spiritual Disciplines for the Christian Life https://www.amazon.com/dp/1615216170/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_3rpGAbNP5WPN4
Cool, I didn't know there was a resources page
I highly recommend Spiritual Disciplines for the Christian Life by Donald Whitney for the Personal Spiritual Growth section
I agree. I think to frame it in doing is all wrong. There is action, no doubt. But I think Piper's way of framing this theology is spot on. See also Desiring God
https://www.amazon.com/Becoming-Orthodox-Journey-Ancient-Christian/dp/1936270005
https://www.amazon.com/Mystical-Theology-Eastern-Church/dp/0913836311/ref=sr_1_8?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1522778316&sr=1-8&keywords=orthodox+eastern
Essentially the Orthodox don't believe that we can know for sure why and how we are saved, unlike the Catholics and Protestants. The Orthodox don't claim that certain actions are guaranteed to send us to hell, nor even that hell involves eternal fire. They emphasize more of an approach of constant prayer and empathy towards fellow man, as the best way to evangelize.
This guy (josh mcdowell) was an avid skeptic and thought christians were crazy. He spent years of his life trying to disprove Jesus and finally gave up and wrote a book on why Jesus is who he says he is. 128 pages laying out the facts.
"more than a carpenter"
http://www.amazon.com/More-Than-Carpenter-Josh-McDowell/dp/1414326270/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1397184490&sr=8-1&keywords=more+than+a+carpenter
Along side the bible, why not try reading something like the celebration of discipline by Richard J. Foster.
It's a really great read and practicing spiritual disciplines can help open us more to the Holy Spirits work in our lives (making us more like Christ).
Well, complete and total separation from God, for one.
The Great Divorce Is a good, fictional look at how much that might suck.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0062272039/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
Evidence That Demands a Verdict: Life-Changing Truth for a Skeptical World
https://www.amazon.com/dp/1401676707/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_BpmvCbAVGFXZY
Cold-Case Christianity: A Homicide Detective Investigates the Claims of the Gospels
https://www.amazon.com/dp/1434704696/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_0qmvCbH2E153C
Josh McDowell's book "More Than a Carpenter" documents all the archeological evidence he found when he researched in Europe. Chapter 10 is dedicated to proving that the Resurrection happened, although I recommend reading all the other chapters before it, otherwise some things in Chapter 10 won't make sense.
You can get a used copy of that book for as little as five bucks on amazon.com: https://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/1414326270/ref=tmm_pap_used_olp_0?ie=UTF8&condition=used&qid=&sr=
To wet your appetite, here's the prologue of that book in PDF format: https://files.tyndale.com/thpdata/firstChapters/978-1-4143-2627-6.pdf
Pages 15-17 state in pertinent part...
> I knew that if I could uncover indisputable evidence that the Bible is an unreliable record, the whole of Christianity would crumble... I spent months in research. I even dropped out of school for a time to study in the historically rich libraries of Europe. And I found evidence. Evidence in abundance. Evidence I would not have believed had I not seen it with my own eyes. Finally I could come to only one conclusion: If I were to remain intellectually honest, I had to admit that the Old and New Testament documents were some of the most reliable writings in all of antiquity... I want to share with you the core of what I learned in my months of research so that you, too, may see that Christianity is not a myth, not the fantasy of wishful dreamers, not a hoax played on the simpleminded. It is rock-solid truth.