Best weed & moss control products according to redditors

We found 204 Reddit comments discussing the best weed & moss control products. We ranked the 86 resulting products by number of redditors who mentioned them. Here are the top 20.

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Subcategories:

Moss control products
Weed barrier fabric
Weed killers

Top Reddit comments about Weed & Moss Control:

u/buttgers · 18 pointsr/lawncare

I'm just up a bit north in MA 6B, so I can help.

I just read through this entire thread. You're doing it all wrong.

  1. You can seed till the cows come home, but you're just committing turf genocide with your routine.
  2. You put 60lbs of Scott's stuff for 1000 sq ft. Either you're measuring your yard incorrectly, or you just dumped waaaay too much synthetic fertilizer on your lawn. And you did it only once all season. Shame. I have about 10000 sq ft of yard, and 60lbs of synthetic is plenty enough for the spring. Nevermind, I read incorrectly. You still need to fertilize more than once a season.
  3. You need water. Cool season grass (which is what you likely have) needs water in the spring, lots of water in the summer, and water in the fall. Water it no more than 3 days a week. The amount you're watering each day depends on how hot it is. So, it might be 10-20 minutes in Apr May, but it'll be closer to 45-60 minutes in June-Sept.
  4. TTTF = mowing height of 4". KBG = mowing height of 3".

    What you need to do is fix your thinking. Want lush, green, thick grass? You need to spend money on water and fertilizer. Want to save money on watering? You need to accept that your yard will be full of weeds and patchy brown grass. You also need to accept that the lawn will go dormant in July and August. That's fine. Let it go yellow, but keep it alive with water 1-2 times a week.

    Here's the plan:

  5. Get a smart irrigation timer. Rain Machine or Rachio. Pick one. It'll save you on your water bill way better than a manual timer. If you're just using a hose, then ignore the fancy timer. Water 2-3 times per week, and eliminate 1 day for every 1" of natural rain you get that week. When you water, make sure you do it enough so that the soil is soft. Not sopping wet, just moist and soft enough that you can drive a screwdriver down 4-6" easily.
  6. Prep soil and seed. Seed and drop starter fertilizer (dosed for your lawn). 1 month after germination drop another round of fertilizer. So, what kind of seed? North facing - that's typically not a sunny spot, so pick a northeastern mix or one that has fine fescue mixed in with it. You can also get shade friendly KBG mix. Really, a TTTF and FF mix will probably better suit you. It's what I put on my east facing side that has a tree shading it. All other parts of my lawn are a TTTF KBG mix, since they're sunny and South facing.
  7. Follow proper mowing and watering guidelines. If you want your grass to go dormant, then water just enough to keep it alive during summer heat. That's probably about 1x per week DEEEP.
  8. Fertilize your lawn according to how it's supposed to grow/sleep. If you want it green, it's growing. So fertilize it Memorial Day, July 4th, Labor Day if using synthetic. If using Milorganite, fertilize it monthly. If you are going to allow it to go dormant, then only fertilize it with Milorganite Memorial Day, July 4th, and Labor Day. The reason is if you feed a sleeping lawn it's going to try to get out of dormancy. Same thing with water. Too much water, and you get your lawn out of dormancy. What you don't want to do is get your lawn to go back and forth too much. It stresses it and wastes nutrients that it's trying to store for survival. So pick one and stick with it. Dormant vs green.
  9. Since the lawn is young, you want the roots to go deep and establish for the winter. You also want to bring in reinforcements to replenish casualties of summer. In late August or EARLY September, overseed with a slit seeder. Water daily enough to keep the soil moist for the seed. Drop starter fertilizer and again at 1 month after germination. Water and fertilize rated for growing grass (e.g. 2-3x per week deep enough to stick a screwdriver down 4-6" easily.
  10. In the fall, mow it lower and more frequently. It forces the grass to spread and establish root depth.
  11. Just before the first frost of the season (usually around Thanksgiving) winterize your lawn. Put down a combination of Milorganite AND fall fertilizer. It'll feed the lawn w/o growing it and get it boosted for the winter.
  12. DO NOT WATER AT NIGHT. Water super early at 4-5am or by 9-10am at the latest. Watering early will minimize water loss from hot air since it'll have soaked into the soil before the hot sun bakes it off. Watering overnight will allow it to keep the leaves wet and promote fungus, since no sun dries off the leaves.
  13. Minimize your use of weed killer on young grass. Not until its 2nd month after germinating should you use weed killer.
  14. Use a pre-emergent before crabgrass breaks through. Plenty of topics on that subject, but I use Tenacity. It's pricey, but you can put it down, then drop seed over it w/o negative effects on your new seed. Other pre-emergents will prevent germination.

    So, what do I do?

  • I seed in the spring (or do dormant seeding in the winter).
  • 1 dose of starter fertilizer in the spring.
  • Milorganite or Bay State Fertilizer every 2-4 weeks.
  • Water 3x per week deep during the spring and fall, 1x per week deep during the summer. I use a Rain Machine to figure out the rain adjustments to my watering.
  • I overseed in the fall if I have casualties.
  • I hand mostly hand pick my weeds, and use 2,4D only if I have to.
  • I use tenacity to control my crabgrass and poa annua.

    Choose your adventure, and good luck.

    Edit: fixed details that I misread about your routine.
u/tynick · 10 pointsr/lawncare

Use Quinclorac and MSO Surfactant to kill.
Use Prodiamine to prevent.

u/vhostnet · 8 pointsr/lawncare

Seems to be an issue with newer builds (built post 1990 or so) when developers started scraping off the black dirt from a property they intended to build many houses on, piling it up, and reselling what they didn't use for "rough/final" grading. Might not be your situation, but that's what I'm used to around here.


I've had success with this:

  1. Aerate both in the fall and spring, twice a year seems excessive, but it has worked.
  2. After aerating spread a lot of gypsum (i.e. your fertilizer spreader is set to "all the way open")....both fall and spring, every year
  3. After spreading gypsum, get on a fertilizer plan (4 or 5 step, skip the pre-emergent or post-emergent if seeding and use just a straight fertilizer or it will kill the seed/germination)
  4. Overseed (leave fert spreader "all the way open") or slitseed after fertilizing (do not use weed/feed or crab grass pre-m, I cannot say this enough). I started using this seed last year (zone 5, Chicago) and it's been awesome (looks just like kentucky blue/rye, but it's fescue, also has a yellow jacket coating that seems to prevent birds from eating it): https://www.barusa.com/products/turf-saver-lawn.htm (they have a "where to buy" section of their website).
  5. After the seed germinates (~ 2 - 5 weeks around here depending on the soil temps) use something like this: https://www.amazon.com/PBI-Gordon-652400-Killer-20-Ounce/dp/B001PCRKDC to spot spray the weeds with a 2 gallon sprayer (it gets mixed ~ 1.5 oz/gal). I prefer speedzone because the weeds seem to die quicker, and it also handles harder to kill weeds better than regular trimec (you can likely buy this also from the same place you get your seed if it's not a big box store).

    It seems to take ~ 3 years for the lawn to really turn around. Once the lawn looks healthy, you don't have to overseed or slit seed except in areas damaged from winter, dogs, etc., so feel free to move to using pre and post emergents (crabgrass preventer and weed and feed as they're commonly called).

    Gypsum and aeration should be a yearly thing.

    Buying 1 bag of 50lbs of seed should last you a few years depending on lot size, do not buy the seed they sell in big box stores, get it from a wholesale distributor that typically sells to professionals. You lose ~ 5%-15% germination per year it sits (store the bag in a plastic container so rodents don't get to it), so figure after 3 years it's toast.

    Hopefully this helps, best wishes with a future healthy lawn!
u/Porter1823 · 6 pointsr/electricians

You really just need a motor speed controller, they produce the same effect as you'd think of a dimmer, but are designed for motors.
Something like this should work

https://www.amazon.com/Casolly-Variable-Controller-Exhaust-Inline/dp/B07BMR4THQ/ref=mp_s_a_1_12?keywords=motor+speed&qid=1557789535&s=gateway&sr=8-12

u/mwoodj · 6 pointsr/lawncare

Sedgehammer is the way to go. You can get a 2-pack on Amazon for $17.50 and I recommend going that route because it is likely you will need a follow-up application: https://www.amazon.com/Sedgehammer-Plus-Herbicide-Grams-Packs/dp/B007PHNUOE

Edit: I'm not sure why I was downvoted but if it was due to the ref URL I don't know what the ref was for. I just searched for the product on Amazon and then copied the URL from my address bar. I didn't get anything out of anyone's use of that URL.

u/skippingstone · 6 pointsr/golf

Since you are overseeding, you can use tenacity to prevent weeds for 6 weeks without harming good cool season grass.

No clue if you can get it in NZ
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B005DUTNF0/ref=cm_sw_r_other_apa_i_OSbRDbW8CPZEW

After the 6 week window, use prodiamine. It will prevent anything new from sprouting for a few months.

u/Creepytrailmix · 5 pointsr/lawncare

I'm like 95% sure that's wild violet. I would use a combination weed killer that has 2-4d and Triclopyr. Below is a link for what I use and it kills almost anything besides grassy weeds.


https://www.amazon.com/Southern-Ag-CROSSBOW32-Specialty-Herbicide/dp/B00D0JHB5K

u/cd6020 · 5 pointsr/lawncare

I've used this stuff. The 14oz bottle goes a long way.

Amazon link but probably available elsewhere

u/Phillips_Guides · 4 pointsr/microgrowery

alright, first things first, remove the rack above, second, you want your exhaust to be passive as far uptop a you can mount it,even coming out the ceiling if you want to get real specific, but just coming out the top right side while your active intake comes in from the bottom left you will be alright(don't forget to put filtering material on both sides), unless u got something really stinky, for small grows like this i'd just use a bubble bucket, buy some pinesole and a fish tank pump with sime airstones and mix in 1000/1 pinesole and let it bubble, it will take care of the smells and cost u cpl hundred less in carbon filter. SECOND dont start with that big ass pot, go from half gallon to gallon to 3 gallon, and soon as she takes to the 3 gallon flip her 12/12, and during veg lots of training, LST, HST, topping, the whole nine so u can get the most out of that. as far as your intake goes your gonna want to place it at the bottom as hot air rises and cool air stays close to the ground. Might i suggest this 6 inch 240CFM inline fan https://amzn.to/2rLcyA9 , and in order to control your temps, humidity, and all that a variable fan speed controller, This is insane the exact same one i use. https://amzn.to/2rK8Dmn . This is just some experience coming from an old timer that knows that its all about the climate, and if you don't get that right then nothing going to go right for ya. Good luck, and i know those are dear. however i picked em for myself just because they where the cheapest and never let me down. gluck - Phil

u/rcrracer · 3 pointsr/RealEstate

I've gone through this a couple of times in the last four years. I used an independent insurance broker. Four years ago, when I first got insurance through them, they had a contractor come out and access my 21 year old shingle roof. Passed with flying colors. A couple of years later, supposedly that particular insurance company wouldn't renew my policy because the roof was too old. Naturally, there was another company that was willing to take on the risk for a few hundred dollars a year more. They canceled me a year later, for a reason unrelated to the roof. Insurance company number three in four years said they would insure me but the roof has a 10% deductible. House value $200K. Deductible for roof $20K. Plus, this company had someone come out and take numerous pictures of my house, inside and out. This guy takes pictures of five houses a day, five days a week. He said my shingles looked like they were five or six years old. He couldn't believe they were 25 years old. Zero mold/algae stains.

Shingle maintenance. I have done this three times in 25 years. Nineteen years ago I bought numerous gallons of Jomax and twice(?) as many gallons of bleach. Followed the instructions and used a garden sprayer to spray the shingles my 1500 Sq. Ft. house with 3000 Sq. Ft. roof. Did it again about seven or eight years later. It's sucks because my roof is 9:12 pitch and I am old. I have to tie ropes everywhere to get around on the roof. Without a rope, a slip means next stop is the ground. Knew my insurance policy had been canceled and knew of the potential problems with 25 year old roof. I had an old gallon of Jomax left over. Active ingredients O-Phenylphenol @ .25%. Since then Rustoleum bought the company that makes Jomax. They changed the ingredients. PDF Companies typically don't change ingredients to make products better. They do it to increase their profit margins. I went looking for something that contained the original ingredients. I bought a gallon of Tek-Trol from Amazon. This mixes @ 256:1. Instead of buying who knows how many gallons of Jomax @ $20 each, I bought one gallon of Tek-Trol @ $46 including shipping. Following the ratio on the Jomax container, I mixed distilled water, bleach, Tek-Trol @ 256:1 and a Non-Ionic Surfactant for Herbicides that I had laying around. This time instead of using a pump up garden sprayer, I used a submersible utility pump and about 25 feet of garden hose with a sprayer. I would mix up everything in a five gallon bucket, drop the pump in, carry it up on the roof, and spray away. That was much easer and faster than using the pump up sprayer. With old roofs that haven't been cleaned every now and then, it may be difficult to remove the mold/algae stains.

u/JJMcG35x · 3 pointsr/lawncare

Get this instead of the Ortho, it'll brown up and burn out in a few days.

Sedgehammer Plus Turf Herbicide 13.5 Grams (2 Packs) https://www.amazon.com/dp/B007PHNUOE/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_zAUHxbBVVYYEW

u/El_Scorcher · 3 pointsr/lawncare

Quali-Pro Dithiopyr 40 WSB (Dimension) Herbicide https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00C4Y24IG/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_iYxyDbM48NYDA

I just ordered this. Here in New Mexico I need something that can act as a post emergent for the warm fall season.

u/patl1 · 3 pointsr/lawncare

Okay so. Here's what I'm thinking. I only saw the picture you posted, so it looks like you have 1,000 square feet or less, yes? That makes it kinda easy.

First we'll need to know which zone you're in. That will help pick your grass type. It looks like you have cool season grasses, which means you'll be choosing among various fescues, Kentucky bluegrass, perennial ryegrass, etc. That's kind of up to you. Do a little googling and see what you come up with.

Second, you have a lot of weeds in there. It looks like you have either poa annua (annual bluegrass) or poa trivialis (Hell on Earth), or possibly both mixed in there. Those are seriously not good. Not only do you have a lot of weeds, it looks like you might have a significant mix of grass types, and I'm not positive that it's worth saving. Here's what I would do. Keep in mind that this might be overkill for you.

From now until July:

  • Get a soil test. Your local agricultural or state university will probably have a soil test program. This will help you figure out how best to treat your soil with fertilizer when it comes time to grow real grass. (~$30)
  • Kill off basic broadleaf weeds with a 2,4-D product before they can drop seeds and make next year worse. This one is probably one of the easiest. Your choice. (~$10)
  • If you're feeling like you want to care for your soil, throw down some Milorganite. Not exactly necessary at this time cause we don't know what your soil test will come back with. (~$14)

    Sometime in July:

  • Spray a glyphosate product to kill everything. I use this one, but you can also use RoundUp from any hardware or big box store. The active ingredient is the same. (~$30)
  • It will take ~2 weeks to see results from the glyphosate. At roughly the 14 day mark, hit everything else that's green with another application.
  • Optional but recommended: level out your soil and make sure it's flat, to help with a uniform look.
  • Not recommended: tilling. It helps stir up weed seeds and encourages weed growth at the same time that you're trying to plant grass seed.

    Mid/late August:

  • Seed with your given grass type. Do this at least 7 days after your last glyphosate application, 14 days afterwards is preferable. I suggest seed as opposed to sod because it's cheaper. Seeding is kinda its own post because you may need to cover with topsoil, flatten ground, irrigate, yadda yadda yadda. We can talk more about that when the time comes. ($10-$100)
  • Add a starter fertilizer with your seed. Whichever fert you choose will be based off of the results of your soil test. ($10-$30)

    After a couple months, you should have a pretty healthy crop of baby grass, and then it will go dormant for the winter. Not a problem. Once spring hits, start following this lawn care schedule from the Lawn Care Nut. Most of that guy's videos are gold, and I strongly recommend that you watch them.

    It will take a little time and more than a fair amount of patience, but I'm pretty sure all of that will (at least for the first year) come in under budget, and it will end up with the results that you want. Especially in the long run.

    EDIT(s): Forgot to mention a couple things. I had a little more whiskey than I thought.

    Geographical zone will be in the sidebar.

    Also go with a pre-emergent in the spring if you aren't adding seed. The most popular 3 brand names are Barricade, Dimension, and Tenacity. Their generic names are prodiamine, dithiopyr, and...tenacity? Honestly I'm not sure if there's a generic for Tenacity cause it's not legally usable in my state. But seriously a pre-emergent will cut your weed problems down by SO MUCH.

    Estimated cost for the first year is $214 (minus water, topsoil/peat moss, and possibly tools such as a hand pump sprayer and a broadcast spreader) at the most, and $114 at the low end.
u/shemperdoodle · 3 pointsr/legaladvice

You can buy plastic barriers to put in the ground, obviously it's a lot of work though and most people don't figure this out until it's too late. Otherwise you have to occasionally chop into the ground along the edge of the bamboo with a spade to stop it from spreading.

You could even cut that in half and make it 50' because the runners really don't go deeper than 5".

u/wino_tim · 3 pointsr/lawncare

You are too late to seed. There is no way around this.

That said, if I were you, I would approach things in one of two ways:

- If your lawn is good enough that you can tolerate another 10 or 11 months of looking at it:

  1. Apply fertilizer now. Do not apply anything organic (Milorganite, etc.), you want to go full synthetic here. Some Urea that you buy from a garden shop would probably be best, but you can probably get away with something like Scotts Winterguard. Apply at 2# per thousand square feet. (If you haven't measured your lawn, time to do that now). Wait two weeks. Apply another 2#. Use a spreader.
  2. Optional - spray weeds. Most of your weeds are going to be on their way out due to cooler temperatures. Most of those that aren't will soon be joining their dying cousins. Very few will make it through the winter. But if you are new to lawncare, now might be the time to buy a decent sprayer and get out there and get used to spraying. Weed B Gon 16 oz. Chickweed, Clover, Oxalis is a good place to start. SpeedZone is more of a professional product but is a personal favorite.
  3. Mow. Ideally every three to four days.
  4. Water. If you aren't getting enough rain, get your sprinkler out there.

    - If your lawn is so bad that you can't tolerate it :

  5. Buy both Tenacity + Round Up. Have Tenacity shipped next day air, if you need to. Mix the Tenacity in your sprayer as per the label directions being sure to add a surfactant. Spray the Tenacity on parts of your lawn where there are weeds but also good grass. Spray the Round Up on parts where there is no good grass and only weeds. Be careful with Round Up - it will kill basically anything green it touches. (If you can't get the Tenacity within the next day just skip it and leave those spots be).
  6. Buy whatever seed you can that has the most rye. Rye will germinate much faster than bluegrass or fescue. Seed literally the same day you spray the weeds. Realize that you can do this with both Tenacity and Round Up, but not with many other herbicides. Use your spreader when seeding.
  7. Rent a lawn roller. Roll your seed into your turf. This is important as your weeds won't be dead and you want good seed to soil contact.
  8. Cover the seed with a very light coating of peat moss. Hay is bad and will bring weeds next Spring. If you need something for a hill and are set on something hay-like use EZ Straw instead.
  9. Water. Use sprinkler timers or ask for favors from friends and family but do whatever you need to keep the soil moist. For most that means watering two to four times a day for a few minutes. Because it is colder you can get away with watering less.
  10. Pray. Doing all this is the equivalent of a hail Mary pass in football. It likely won't work but it will give you a chance. You want warm weather and for as long as possible.

    Good luck!
u/leetrobotz · 3 pointsr/landscaping

I recognize crabgrass and "henbit" Lamium amplexicaule there. Both are typical weeds in my region.

I had a similar problem, and /u/ferrarisnowday has good suggestions but the route I took is different. It is very much slower though, so if speed is your goal, you do need to "nuke it and start over" like (s)he suggested.

The process I'm using is called "overseeding" and it takes a few years to get to a good lawn. The upside is you don't have bare dirt at any point, so it doesn't erode or give lots of weeds a chance to grow. Overseeding involves killing existing undesirable grasses/weeds using something like [Bayer Lawn Weed & Crabgrass Killer] (http://www.amazon.com/Bayer-Advanced-Crabgrass-Concentrate-32-Ounce/dp/B001OSH5P0/) then wait about 3 weeks, seed and fertilize like you would for an established lawn except that you don't use pre-emergent. (For the uninitiated, pre-emergent is a fertilizer type that prevents new plants from growing, including good seeds).

Depending on the type of grass you want, seeding is best in the spring (in a week or two, where I live) or in the fall, and you can help the seed work better by core aerating (a big machine that punches 1/2" holes in the yard to get air and seeds deeper in the soil. Put seed down, spread starter fertilizer. Water generously until grass starts growing, then go to normal watering schedule.

I have noticed with this method that the few bare-dirt spots I had have grown grass much more quickly and look better than the spots I overseeded; competition from the pre-existing weeds has limited the effectiveness of overseeding. If you can kill all your grass and weeds and then start, that works better. If you can afford sod, do it; but be sure to water it according to instructions.

(Feel free to ask me if you have any questions about how or why I'm doing what I'm doing)

TL;DR: An alternative is overseeding if your yard slopes or killing it all to bare dirt isn't feasible.

u/DoesItFitHere · 3 pointsr/lawncare

In that first picture I'd take a chainsaw to some of those low branches. That'll allow for more sunlight to what looks like your front yard, and also will encourage more upward growth for the tree. It'll make the tree nice and slim. This will also give you much more sunlight to the grass in the surrounding area.

​

The fact that your house is neighboring a forest is going to be a constant issue in terms of weeds, but creating a little separator should keep that in check. It looks like the area by the fence used to be a big mulch bed and the rocks are there to contain the mulch. You'll want to spread a new layer of mulch there and keep the grass/ weeds from growing in there. Round-up is a great tool.

​

Now in terms of the grass/ weeds. The first thing you'll want to find is a nice 2 gallon sprayer and some broad-leaf herbicide. I personally use lesco eliminate-d broadleaf herbicide. I had a big problem this spring and using this herbicide vs pulling weeds out manually was a lifesaver. I used it alongside a surfactant and it was simply magical. Usually 3-4 days after you spray your yard at the proper rate you'll see all the weeds that the herbicide targets to wither and die. I understand that you have dogs and that might not be a great approach for you. If you can keep the dogs indoors and out of your yard for a few days it'll be a lot easier than pulling the weeds by hand. Now get a good mow in and the weeds should be gone. From there it depends what you want to do with your yard/ how much time and money you want to throw at it.

u/drewmey · 3 pointsr/lawncare

Many of your "deals" are not deals. I bought Crossbow on Saturaday for $22.77. And it has been floating in that price range for quite a while. I didn't look hard, but I am guessing many of these deals are simply comparing with MSRP, not the going Amazon rate.

u/Madox9 · 2 pointsr/lawncare

Aeration has it uses like on a golf courses or you drive heavy equipment across your yard. Normal use yards don't get compacted enough to warrant the use. I use a soil conditioner and it really helps.

Pre emergent in the spring can't use it now cause it would block your grass seed from growing. You can use https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/cr/B005DUTNF0/ref=mw_dp_cr
Pre and post seed but read the directions 3 times to make sure you apply it correctly. It will cause your grass to whiten but it will come back. It's a little pricey but it will knock out a lot of weeds.

In the spring use something like this
https://www.amazon.com/Dimension-2EW-Dithiopyr-Pre-Emergent-Herbicide/dp/B0056650Z8
Or anything with dimension in it.

u/TBpanz · 2 pointsr/lawncare

Buy some Glysophate and a pump sprayer and spray that area, in 3 weeks it will be 100% dead. Lay down some pre-emergents and monitor for any weeds that sprout after. You'll want to till the ground after the weeds die in 3 weeks before you lay the pre-emergents.

This glysophate needs a surfactant and needs to be mixed with water accordingly.

http://www.amazon.com/Compare-N-Save-Concentrate-41-Percent-Glyphosate-1-Gallon/dp/B00ARKS3XO/ref=sr_1_1?s=lawn-garden&ie=UTF8&qid=1464552388&sr=1-1&keywords=glyphosate

http://www.amazon.com/Southern-Ag-Surfactant-Herbicides-Non-Ionic/dp/B004XDHRCE/ref=sr_1_6?s=lawn-garden&ie=UTF8&qid=1464552388&sr=1-6&keywords=glyphosate

u/TheAmazingAaron · 2 pointsr/HomeImprovement

I agree with spot spraying for weeds. Bayer sells a concentrate broad leaf weed plus crabgrass killer. It has the same 2,4-D as the product you mentioned but also contains quinclorac for the crabgrass. It will only kill the young plants and usually leaves the dead brown crabgrass visible.


OP, here's what I would do:

-Apply a layer of pre-emergent to catch all the crabgrass that hasn't sprouted yet (it comes in throughout the warm season).

-Get a soil test and apply a fertilizer at the rate needed. I don't suggest a 'weed and feed' because the amount of fertilizer and pre-emergent/weedkiller will not necessarily match up.

-Spot treat weed patches with a hand sprayer and the Bayer weed + crabgrass killer. (on sale for $9 at Lowes). This will take a couple of passes before weeds are really gone.

-Use the recommended does of ant killer on the ant mounds. You can/should also apply an insect killer to the entire lawn to prevent grubs and moles.

Moving forward you'll want to continue spot spraying when you see weeds, follow a regular fertilizer schedule, and apply pre-emergent in the fall and spring. These steps can all be skipped but any skips will result in the much greater amount of work that you're experiencing now.

u/bloks1995 · 2 pointsr/SavageGarden

I bought it off amazon here. This stuff is leaps and bounds better than Mosser Lee (honestly that stuff belongs in the trash...). BesGrow makes even higher quality stuff than this that we have started using in the greenhouse, but I am having problems finding a place to buy it, I'll ask the GH manager where he got it next time I see him.

EDIT: This is the good stuff, but I seriously doubt we are paying that much for it. At least I hope not, I went through 1.5 bags potting up one bical today!

u/[deleted] · 2 pointsr/lawncare

Here's how I would attack it:

Weed Control

  1. Mow high, mow regularly for the rest of the summer.
  2. Once the weather starts cooling down, hit it with fertilizer. Like a 30-0-8 and water it in well. This should kick the grass and weeds into a growth spurt.
  3. 3-4 days after laying down the fertilizer, apply a selective herbicide such as Trimec, 2,4D etc... Wait a few days, then do it again.
  4. Use multiple applications of Tenacity in a pump sprayer to take care of your crabgrass and any remaining weeds.
  5. Any weeds that survive the above are going to need more specific help.

    In the spring, lay down a pre-emergent product to prevent the crabgrass and any other weed seeds from coming up.


    Overseeding


    Now that we've eased the weed pressure on your lawn, you are going to want to start thickening it up as you will suddenly have a large amount of exposed dirt.

    This fall, I would make sure to overseed with an appropriate seed mix for your climate. Makes sure to rake out any thatch to expose bare soil. In areas where the remaining grass is still fairly thick, you don't need to cover the new seed; if it's fairly exposed, rake it lightly into the dirt. Ideally, exposed grass seed should have ~1/8" of soil covering it.

    Keep the seed moist until it has full germinated (several weeks).

    Fertilizing

    Surpisingly, I am keeping the fertilization step for last, because it's arguably the biggest topic depending on how you want to go, and what your available time involvement and interest is.

    In short, your turf will need a certain amount of nitrogen and other nutrients. However, to go into more detail will require more time than I have right now - hopefully someone else will pick up the ball on fertilizers here.

    As a touchpoint, my personal fertilizer schedule is to hit it with 20lb of alfalfa pellets / 1000ft^2 four times per year, plus a 1lb / 1000ft^2 application of urea late fall as a winterizer, but your mileage may vary.

    Soil Test / Amendments

    If you are really serious about a good lawn, I would recommend taking a soil test and submitting it to Logan Labs for analysis. You can find better instructions here. That will let us give you much better help about how to amend your soil towards optimal conditions for turf growth.
u/_otherotherthrowaway · 2 pointsr/lawncare
u/mr1337 · 2 pointsr/lawncare

Awesome! Make sure you read the label - it will tell you exactly how much to mix with water for spot spraying. You also might want to add a surfactant to break down the surface tension. In a pinch, a little dish soap will do, just make sure it's not antibacterial.

Here's the one I use:

Southern Ag Surfactant for Herbicides Non-Ionic, 16oz, 1 Pint https://www.amazon.com/dp/B004XDHRCE/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_dPTwCbGC8XNHH

Once you have the herbicide, surfactant, and pump sprayers - they should last you a few years and save you money over buying bottles of diluted weed killer.

u/AmishGypsy · 2 pointsr/lawncare

Dish soap and baby shampoo work. I've never used either, but I think you need them to be as plain as possible. Quick google search should tell you what to look for/avoid. I'm a fan of this surfactant. I'd also like to second his thought on Triclopyr. I used Ortho CCO and saw amazing results after 2 applications.

u/MasdevalliaLove · 2 pointsr/orchids
u/YearsWithoutLight · 2 pointsr/Sacramento

https://www.amazon.com/Bamboo-Shield-Foot-Barrier-Water/dp/B00U9TT4RC

They carry it at home depot and lowes, I'm sure.

u/hypnotoad3012 · 2 pointsr/Bladesmith

3600 what? Rpm, I assume. It may be watts though. Either way, vfd's are for 3 phase motors. I am almost positive you can use a speed control. Being it's 110v AC.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07BMR4THQ/ref=cm_sw_r_other_apa_i_Ldk3Cb18VSFCX

Something simple like this should work, if the motor has a regular 110v, 3 prong plug. If not, you should be able to make a cord for it.

u/pfdman · 2 pointsr/lawncare

Looks like Creeping Charlie to me. I'm from Orland Park.

Speed Zone Weed Killer Concentrate

u/SlapDiggity · 2 pointsr/lawncare

https://www.amazon.com/Southern-Ag-Surfactant-Herbicides-Non-Ionic/dp/B004XDHRCE/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1537489926&sr=8-4&keywords=surfactant+for+herbicide

It will make the droplets smaller and stay on the leaves. Creeping Charlie has a waxy skin which makes it tough for liquids to stick. This helps.

u/robertdilbert · 2 pointsr/lawncare

this stuff? https://www.amazon.com/Southern-Ag-Specialty-Herbicide-Triclopyr/dp/B00D0JHB5K seems like a couple years supply for me lol, will it kill chickweed?

u/paulburk426 · 2 pointsr/lawncare

I'm surprised you are having such a tough time with it, usually broadleafs are the easiest to get rid of. Can you get us a picture to verify?

How is your mowing/watering schedule? bermuda does great as short as possible and helps keep weeds at bay and you should only be applying 1inch of water a week which usually knocks out water hungry weeds

  1. Celsius WG herbicide, the god send for bermuda owners is labeled for yellow oxalis but does say it might take two applications 2-4 weeks apart for oxalis in particular. You can get it on amazon for about $115 which is enough to last you for years.

  2. Glyphosate(round up) - This will kill your grass if applied on it but you can wipe/paint it on with a brush or hand wick so that it only gets on the oxalis

    I'm in your region and its beginning to get hot so watch out with those big box store chemicals, they are not safe to use in hot temps but Celsius is. The prodiamine is only a pre-em so only stops new seeds from germinating.

    I personally use a paint brush for round up but heres a hand wick which I assume might be easier on the back
    Handwick for applying chemicals

    Celsius herbicide


    Edit: Celsius will take some time, don't expect to see any results for at least 7 to 10 days..then BAM!
u/squirrellydw · 2 pointsr/homeowners

1.... put on funnel over the wand nozzle and spay the weeds. This prevents the wind from blowing the spray around to other areas.

2.... something like this, it works ok
https://www.amazon.com/Southern-Ag-Selective-Broadleaf-Control/dp/B0072289CA/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&qid=1492125031&sr=8-7&keywords=weed+killer

2.... this is some of the best stuff but not cheap. You might be able to find it in smaller containers. Just make sure you understand how to use it and always test it first.
https://www.amazon.com/Trimec-992-Broadleaf-Herbicide-2-5/dp/B004HFT26C/ref=sr_1_16?ie=UTF8&qid=1492125200&sr=8-16&keywords=trimec

3.... Weed block but that can become a pain later on.

extra... If you have crabgrass use on of these and follow the instructions, it works great and will NOT kill your good grass.
https://www.amazon.com/Drive-Herbicide-Gallon-KILLS-CRABGRASS/dp/B0058W42QS/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1492124978&sr=8-1&keywords=drive+xlr8

https://www.amazon.com/Quinclorac-75-Herbicide-Quinstar-Select/dp/B015X6FP82/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1492124978&sr=8-6&keywords=drive+xlr8

u/Anaweiser · 2 pointsr/lawncare

I'm in socal and had the same problem last year. Cleared it up and it just came back. Literally just got done putting down a granular fungicide.

Its brown spot, water early as you can so the grass stays wet for less time.

Scotts DiseaseEx Lawn Fungicide, 10 LB - Lawn Disease Prevention and Control for Brown Patch, Yellow Patch, Stem and Stripe Rust, Red Thread, and More As Listed https://www.amazon.com/dp/B075R7BNXV/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_rd7VCbJ3TY8DY

Spectracide 96187 HG-96187 Insect Killer https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00FGPN6FU/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_re7VCbRC6Q8V5

You can use either, I use both actually. Mine remained dormant throughout the winter but just popped back up a couple of weeks ago

u/waterboysh · 2 pointsr/HomeImprovement

Sedgehammer. It's expensive, but you literally only use a teaspoon per 1,000 ft^2 so it goes a long way. It also needs a surfactant.

If you don't have much, you can get a single use packet and it already has surfactant in it.

u/guccigaroppolo10 · 2 pointsr/lawncare

Blanket spray with a sprayer with this : Bayer Advanced All-in-One Lawn Weed & Crabgrass Killer 32 oz Concentrate for Dandelions, Crabgrass & Clover https://www.amazon.com/dp/B001OSH5P0/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_JT2TCbFNR3A08

And when it starts to get warmer in your area (70+) put down some milorganite.

u/mrm17 · 2 pointsr/lawncare
u/wakbrdr4life · 2 pointsr/landscaping

Just use a pre-emergent weed and feed in the next few weeks, and end of spring, use post-emergent weed and feed and it'll be gone. Alternatively, you can use a spot treatment with Tenacity. I live in Charlotte as well. I only use Tenacity if the other stuff doesn't work. It MUST be used according to directions or you will kill everything it touches.

u/gn4 · 2 pointsr/lawncare

Sorry for hijacking your thread but is there a shortage of Tenacity recently? Amazon sells 8oz for $110. A year ago you could buy them for less than $50!

u/urist81 · 2 pointsr/lawncare

You've got a couple of things in there. The clover will be killed by 2,4-D, Mercopop, dicamba, etc. All easy to find stuff.

The creeping Charley is a little tougher. 2,4-d, etc will knock it back, but triclopyr really works much better.

Crossbow should work great to clear them all out. Amazon sells it, and you might be able to find it locally if you look around. It's not cheap but it's a concentrate that will go a long way. You can either mix it up in a pump sprayer, or use it with a hose end sprayer like this: http://www.lowes.com/pd_549199-446-0841010_0__?k_clickID=3bde818b-af81-4895-92ab-6a8d8bf56190&store_code=1881&productId=50074025&selectedLocalStoreBeanArray=%5Bcom.lowes.commerce.storelocator.beans.LocatorStoreBean%402df12df1%5D&storeNumber=1881&kpid=50074025&cm_mmc=SCE_PLA-_-LawnGarden-_-Sprayers-_-50074025%3AORTHO&DM_PersistentCookieCreated=true&CAWELAID=&CAWELAID=320011480001691978

http://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B00D0JHB5K/ref=pd_lpo_sbs_dp_ss_1?pf_rd_p=1944687762&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-1&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=B004TGNLJ8&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=151YDMSS7R378F7DB7F0

u/Zindel1 · 2 pointsr/HomeImprovement

Yep I've got this problem as well. I got this and this. I'm hoping this will take care of it before I over seed. I will be getting it today and if it doesn't keep raining this weekend i'll be putting it down. I can do a follow up on it to let you know how it goes for me.

u/schind · 1 pointr/lawncare

Is this the Tenacity I should be purchasing? Its hard to find out about their products from their website.

https://www.amazon.com/Tenacity-Turf-Herbicide-8-ounces/dp/B005DUTNF0

u/Quickstrike · 1 pointr/LifeProTips

I've had great luck using Speed Zone herbicide http://www.amazon.com/Speed-Zone-Lawn-Weed-Killer/dp/B001PCRKDC
with a 1 gallon sprayer.

Seems to work considerably better than the department store brands that I have used.

u/lanmansa · 1 pointr/lawncare

I actually just sprayed with this stuff a few days ago using a fan sprayer nozzle over about 50% of my lawn just spot spraying in a grid pattern where I saw weeds. Haven't seen any results yet, I tested it along my driveway a few days prior and those weeds just started to wither and die. https://www.amazon.com/Bayer-Advanced-Crabgrass-Concentrate-32-Ounce/dp/B001OSH5P0/ref=sr_1_2?s=lawn-garden&ie=UTF8&qid=1466621542&sr=1-2&keywords=bayer+advanced

u/viva_oldtrafford · 1 pointr/lawncare

Hit that shit with 2-3 (lighter) apps of celsius.

Pour the N to it - none of the organic nonsense.

Watch SA conquer the crab


How did the Atrazine work for you and why did you stop using it?

Edit: http://www.amazon.com/Bayer-WG-Celsius-10-oz/dp/B00PLNB19K - pricey, but even at the highest label rate you can do 3 acres - for a homeowner, that's enough for a couple years.

u/ZeroFailOne · 1 pointr/landscaping

Those "weeds" almost look like saplings. I would suggest pulling or using spray like Speed Zone .


u/nefrina · 1 pointr/HomeImprovement

just bought this from amazon, i think it's the right kind?

u/sharon1118 · 1 pointr/lawncare

That's a creeping weed I use this

VPG Fertilome 803064 32Oz Weed-Free Zone, Quart(s) (32 oz) https://www.amazon.com/dp/B005XONO8S/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_tpzvDb24E3Y0G

Don't buy Scott's grass seed it contains weeds. I get my grass from Crossman Seeds

u/eZGjBw1Z · 1 pointr/lawncare

You need to be using a non-ionic surfactant with the Tenacity if you want it to work best as a post-emergent.

u/stoopid_pig · 1 pointr/Grass

Drive XLR8 will take care of the crabgrass without killing the grass, but it is pricey.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0058W42QS/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_AjVqDbYZ6FW7G

I would add a non-ionic surfactant as well.

u/karty44 · 1 pointr/lawncare

Stupid question... and I’m sorry, but I’ve looked online and found straight quinclorac (like this: Quinclorac 75 DF Selective Herbicide Equivalent to Drive quali-1014 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B006LAVM3W/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_.EoqDbWYH7Q2D).

Is this better than regular crabgrass weed killer that has quinclorac in it? Which should I be using?

u/Unabomber007 · 1 pointr/lawncare

https://www.amazon.com/Gordons-Ornamec-Grass-Herbicide-Ounces/dp/B008MZQE6O/

+

https://www.homedepot.com/p/1-Gal-Surfactant-75296/304755445

Its heat sensitive, so don't apply in say 85+ temps, but the bottle says for sure. Last Tuesday was an odd cool day here, so I spot sprayed all the Bermuda in the yard I could find. It takes several years to get it all, so be patient....its one of the harder things to get unless you glyphosate the whole area.

u/Deahtop · 1 pointr/lawncare

Is it tenacity herbicide?

u/pblood40 · 1 pointr/landscaping

We used this

https://www.amazon.com/PBI-Gordon-652400-Killer-20-Ounce/dp/B001PCRKDC

Do not apply in temperatures over 80f (I killed a lawn at the courthouse)

u/Charles_Bass · 1 pointr/DIY

Would something like this be suitable? I know I want something that will let water permeate through it but this one has mixed answers about that. Do you think this needs to be under the bricks too or just the gravel area?

u/SmallVillage · 1 pointr/lawncare

You want what’s called a 3-way weed killer that has the active ingredients 2,4-d(most common broadleaf weed killer) and quinclorac(most common crabgrass killer). I use Bio Advanced Weed & Crabgrass Killer and mix it in a 1 gallon pump sprayer.

u/Kathy151 · 1 pointr/lawncare

I am in the same part of the state dealing with similar-looking grassy weeds, but a few different kinds. My (yet untested) plan is to hit it with Drive, which can also be purchased as the generic quinclorac.

https://www.amazon.com/Drive-Herbicide-Gallon-KILLS-CRABGRASS/dp/B0058W42QS

http://www.domyownpestcontrol.com/quinkill-max-crabgrass-and-weed-killer-p-3019.html

Note: not safe for St Augustine grass in case you have any under shade trees like I do.

u/phiber232 · 1 pointr/lawncare

This a decent one to start with.

Control Solutions Quali-pro Msm Turf Herbicide 2 Oz https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000TZ8VEI/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_w.n9BbDF1CY6W

u/das_mueller · 1 pointr/lawncare

I see some creeping charlie and wild violet use this stuff. It will kill it. The wild violet will respond to the treatment in a day or 2, Charlie will.take a bit longer and might need a second application later on

PBI/Gordon 652400 Speed Zone Lawn Weed Killer, 20-Ounce - Brown/A https://www.amazon.com/dp/B001PCRKDC/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_uUF6Cb8ZW5X52

u/svenkill52 · 1 pointr/lawncare

That lime green stuff looks very much like crabgrass. Quinclorac with a surfactant mixed in is your best bet.

https://www.amazon.com/Quinclorac-Selective-Herbicide-Equivalent-quali-1014/dp/B006LAVM3W

u/mrmooseknuckle_ · 1 pointr/gardening

VPG Fertilome 803064 32Oz Weed-Free Zone, Quart(s) (32 oz) https://www.amazon.com/dp/B005XONO8S/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_96g0CbC43HJMB

u/albeebe1 · 1 pointr/lawncare

Liquid Harvest Lazer Blue Concentrated Spray Pattern Indicator - 1 Quart (32 Ounces) - Perfect Weed Spray Dye, Herbicide Dye, Fertilizer Marking Dye, https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0049I2FPM/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apip_ayjYmeNvLSevr

Southern Ag Surfactant for Herbicides Non-Ionic, 16oz, 1 Pint https://www.amazon.com/dp/B004XDHRCE/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apip_b8sHqQkCZXkEN

u/EngineerDave · 1 pointr/lawncare

Try an Actual surfactant. https://www.amazon.com/Southern-Ag-Surfactant-Herbicides-Non-Ionic/dp/B004XDHRCE?th=1&psc=1 Dish soap is a stop gap if you don't have any at the time, but for tough to kill weeds you need to really use the real deal.

u/arctic_man · 1 pointr/yard

2-4D will not kill crabgrass. It is a broad leaf killer. It will kill dandelions, clovers, and the like, but not crabgrass. Crabgrass is an annual, and can be controlled with applying a late fall or early spring pre-emergent fertilizer. The pre-emergent will stop the crabgrass (And other!) seeds from germinating and sprouting. You will not be able to grow any grass for a period of time after you apply the fertilizer.

Otherwise, you will want to combat the crabgrass before they drop their seeds for the year. You can do this with a non selective weed killer such as RoundUp, pull weeds with your bare hands, or you can purchase some weed killer that combats crabgrass.

For effectiveness, the pre-emergent is probably your best bet. If you are looking into taking care of your crabgrass now, you can look for herbicides that will kill the weed and not your grass. I am not endorsing the below products, but through reviews and a bit of research on my own, I was going to try these products on my yard to combat crabgrass.

Drive XLR8 Herbicide 1/2 Gallon 64 OZ. KILLS CRABGRASS

Bayer Advanced 704140A All-In-One Lawn Weed and Crabgrass Killer Concentrate

Finally, any herbicide you buy, buy in the concentrate. You will save money in the long run. Get a decent pump or battery sprayer and you will be all set.

u/0Slppls0 · 1 pointr/lawncare

If you want to go nuclear, there is a relatively new product called Tenacity that will selectively kill bentgrass. I haven't tried it but reviews are good.

Tenacity Turf Herbicide - 8 ounces https://www.amazon.com/dp/B005DUTNF0/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_X-FkybHRD62MC

u/Olue · 1 pointr/lawncare

MSM will take out the ryegrass and leave the bermuda.

u/senpairabbit · 1 pointr/lawncare

Thank you so much for you help. I am sending out a check for the local extension office for their soil report.

All of this is new to me. I usually just go to Lowes and by something that says crabgrass for a pre-emergent. Are these OK?


Dicamba 2,4 d
Tenacity
[Surfactant] (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004XDHRCE/ref=ox_sc_act_title_3?smid=A1AJDJ0H6GF3H&psc=1)
Backpack sprayer
pre-emergent

u/mattinthega · 1 pointr/lawncare

Haha sorry!

So you do have grass there. It's dormant from the cold. Now is the time to prepare it for the transition to summer. The best offense against the weeds that come with summer is a good defense. A pre-emergent, like the name suggests, stops weeds before they have time to emerge/germinate. A weed control, also known as a post-emergent, is used to control the weeds that are currently visible.

http://www.imageforweeds.com/St-Augustine/index.html

The active ingredient in this product is Atrazine (always check the package label to make sure Atrazine is the listed active. Image for nuts edge is imazaquin which is not what you're looking for). It is a dual purpose herbicide that prevents and controls weeds to come and those visible. You can purchase it in a garden hose attachment form which makes application easy.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Trba9R9oU78

This is a pretty good tutorial. He's spraying ppre emergent but you can substitute any herbicide or pesticide. Measurements are key to a successful application. Measure the area of your backyard. If you have a 4,000 soft back yard, and the product calls for 1oz/1000 sqft, then you know to mix and apply for 4oz of material. Sometimes you'll see 16oz/acre ~ 16oz/44,000sqft ~ .4oz/1000sqft ~ 1.6oz/4,000sqft.

While Atrazine does a good job, it does not do a great job, and it is not your only option. Were it my lawn, I would use a half rate of Atrazine + a regular St Augustine rate of speed zone southern.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B006LBBHE0

The Speedzone will catch more weeds that Atrazine will leave behind. And for a pre-emergent, I would use Barricade ( Prodiamine).

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B004GTQBEK/ref=pd_aw_sbs_lg_1

You can purchase it in WDG form (water dispensable granules) which allows you to dissolve it in water, mix, and spray it, OR you can apply it as granular with a spreader. You can buy it for a very high prices in flowable liquid form as well. Anytime you can spray pre-emergent either with WDG or flow able form, you will get consistently better results than granular.

One application of these three products will have you in the right direction. Mid May I would fertilize with a slow release fertilizer with iron (4.0% or higher iron content. Check the bag for percentages). You're safe to use a higher nitrogen blend like a 24-4-8 or a 34-0-4. The important aspects will be the iron and the slow release. You want to apply this at 3-4lbs/1000sqft.

Let me know if you have anymore questions. By the way repeat the pre-emergent process come September. You'll need to do pre-emergent applications every fall and spring otherwise, see original lawn photos.

u/scoobydoobiedoodoo · 1 pointr/lawncare

Unfortunately, any local merchant that carried either one required a contractor license to allow me to purchase at the 'contractors' rate. Which was about 60-80% cheaper than most prices the general public would pay. I ended up getting both from Amazon here and here. I needed to make sure that the Amazon vendor was also able to ship to CA. As some fellow redditors have told me, some vendors honor this, others do not, but contacting the vendor directly also gives you a better idea of their shipping practices.

u/kingofthering16 · 1 pointr/lawncare

Well Im in Houston and I have Dallis grass and crabgrass. I got rid of some other weeds by using Control Solutions Quali-pro Msm Turf Herbicide 2 Oz

u/voidecho · 1 pointr/lawncare

Someone on here was saying Drive XLR8 was awesome on crabgrass. I just got some, but haven't tried it out yet.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0058W42QS/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

u/RaptorF22 · 1 pointr/yard

Are you sure it's crabgrass? Or is it a different species? There have been similar grasses that died when I used Ortho Weed b Gone with crabgrass control. I also sprayed with this product on saturday and a lot of the crabgrass looking grass died, but these from the picture did not.

I am hoping to identify it as something else.