(Part 2) Top products from r/Enneagram

What is it that you don't want to keep up? What hope do you want to receive here? It sounds like something must keep you going right now -- even if it is crushed and damaged hopes for a better life, that seem so out of reach that it hurts even to think of them long enough to put them into words. Is there any chance you could share what those are? What kind of better life you are holding on for (but, it sounds like, losing hope in)?

Often, growth in the Enneagram system has to do with stopping the unhealthy behaviors that are related to trying to meet your deepest needs and avoid your deepest fears, and, instead, doing something that seems counter-intuitive. I am drawing some on my Enneagram books in the following response when making suggestions, but I am also drawing on my own understanding.

As an adolescent 5w4, I remember one of the things that bolstered my sense of identity was the depths of my negative emotions. This is seen sometimes in Type 4s, who tend to overidentify themselves with their emotional state and use that to support a sense of meaning and identity -- and because emotions shift and change constantly, it can lead to a feeling of emptiness and of being lost. Feeling poorly understood can also become equated with feeling special, unique, and valuable.

However, you may find identity and happiness by putting yourself in their way -- finding work, taking care of yourself and your needs, and expressing yourself to people so that they have a chance of understanding you. If you are needing extra help, finding someone who has experience in Dialectical Behavior Therapy can be useful, or you can also try research-supported self-help workbooks, and supplement that with self-help from internet resources.

One of the things I had to do as growing up, though, was to really evaluate what I get out of feeling unhealthy and unwell, and actually develop a genuine interest in being happy. I used to feel like happy people were stupid, simple, or limited in some way, and letting go of that was a part of developing happiness.

That said, it sounds like you are also facing a lot of other challenges -- poverty and homelessness are not at all easy, and I don't want to make it sound like it is just a simple fix to find happiness while you're struggling to feed yourself and stay alive. Another thing that one of my Enneagram books suggests for Type 4s is to get involved in practical community service. As they say it, it can make you less self-conscious, and give you some insight into the good that exists within you. Personally, in sober moments, I've considered that if I ever wanted to commit suicide, a way of doing so might be to dedicate my life to some kind of community services -- essentially donating the life I don't want to live to the service of others.

This isn't necessarily feasible for someone who is depressed and in so much pain that living itself is excruciating... but if you are looking to find a place in the world and that sense of loss is fueling the suicidality, being of service to others for some preset amount of time (e.g., 2 months) might put you into connection with the struggles of fellow humans (giving you a sense of belonging and kinship), and into the things that drive and move you (whether through talking to the people there, or feeling in yourself what seeing their struggles moves for you). It may give you inspiration for art, or a desire to give more to the community, or... who knows? Worst case scenario, you've done something good for other people while still trying to find your place in life.

I hope you find this helpful.

Yes, yes, yes. If you're an iphone user I recommend the app called Breathe that will walk you through what to do. I also recommend "Silence" by Robert Sardello, and "Finding God in the Waves" by Mike McHargue of Ask Science Mike and The Liturgists fame (link to their enneagram episode). In his chapter on prayer McHargue goes through 3 forms of 'christian' meditation (which I'll pm to you immediately after posting this.) and Sardello speaks on the mystery and comfort in the companionship of Silence (meditation/the holy spirit/the tao).

I recommend the latter for this reason, "Among the things learned is the way out of the confines of the oppressive nature of our egotism, which takes innumerable forms, the most impressive being that of acting as if one's religious demeanor, acquired by reading and even studying what the mystics have experienced and the theologians have theorized about, qualifies one as a lover of Silence." There is some portion of your '3w2-ness' that pushes you to seek efficacious loving and acceptance, helping your S.O. here and at the same time fulfilling some ego fixation in the process.

Sorry for the unsolicited thoughts, hopefully the above resources point you to some peace!

Yeah even though I fell into "nice girl" territory I was never the aggressive kind either. I also read your other comments and noticed you wrote the following:

>I really want to believe it but it's so hard when all of my life experience to this point makes me feel like I'm never enough.

It sounds like you need to work on shifting this belief, because it's easy for it to become a self-fulfilling prophecy. It's a common belief and very understandable, but can make it difficult to find and form healthy relationships. So many of us feel like we have to be needed, because we can't truly be wanted for who we are.

I've found EFT tapping can be a great tool for working through problematic core beliefs like that, and it's great that at least you're aware of it. You may also want to do some reading about attachment theory as it sounds like you could be going after people who are emotionally unavailable without realising.

Two books in particular that helped me a lot with dating were 'Deeper Dating' by Ken Page and 'Attached' by Amir Levine and Rachel Heller. (Unfortunately 'Attached' doesn't discuss the Fearful-Avoidant style in depth but it's still quite useful.)

Hi, I'm a 4w3. I am sorry to hear that you are struggling to find resolution with your conflict. I can't speak for every 4 as we are all very complex individuals. That being said, it took a long time for me to understand what healthy conflict looked like and what I long for in difficult conversations.

Deep down 4's believe they are fundamentally broken. They want to be known, and long for emotional connection (at least I do). I find that compliment sandwiches really help with this. Since it is important to me, I try to frame every conflict like:

>Hey John, I really like you and I think XYZ makes you really enjoyable to be around. I feel it is important to let you know that ABC has really hurt me and effected me. And since I value your friendship so much, I was wondering how we can resolve this."

Fours feel a ton of different things throughout the day. At almost all times, I am trying to decide if my feeling is valid or not or am I just hungry and need to eat. Because of this, I believe that 4's who are unhealthy (emotionally, socially, and mentally) can be very over reactive. 4's that are healthy and have found creative outlets for themselves can be very quick to understand your perspective, especially if they feel that their's is understood as well.

I hope that helps!

PS. I found 2 resources very accurate for 4's. "The Enneagram Made Easy" and "Sleeping at Last, Four". The first is a cartoon style book and the second is a podcast talking about how a song was written. Also Chris, the guest speaker, does an incredible job explaining do's and don'ts with 4s.

Link to Podcast: https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/episode-12-four-the-enneagram/id1270570754?i=1000408792799&mt=2

Link to Book (You can probably find it cheaper): r/https://www.amazon.com/Enneagram-Made-Easy-Discover-People/dp/0062510266

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0787908703/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?qid=1466551952&sr=8-1&pi=AC_SX236_SY340_FMwebp_QL65&keywords=narcissistic+family+system

Have you read that book? It helped me a lot. It gives an objective take on the simple dynamics that arise in a "narcissistic family system". It's technically distinct from NPD because it looks at the family dynamics surrounding a narcissist rather than at the narcissists themselves. It held a lot of truth for me. This new situation for you will probably require you to explore the situation with your mother again as that stuff is one of the deepest layers to peel back to, so an objective re-exploration of yourself through that lens may be helpful.

And thanks! Most people commiserate not congratulate when I share that, so it's nice to hear from someone who knows what it's like. The way I explain it when people react by saying "I'm sorry, that's really terrible" is this: imagine having a 100lb weight tied to your ankle for your whole life. It's always been there, and you just assumed it was part of your body. Now imagine one day, you decide to take it off. Is that sad?" It's a vast oversimplification, but is more or less accurate.

In terms of the ugliness, I'll just say keep exploring yourself and keep searching for deeper truth. It seems like you're doing that already, and aren't questioning that path, I just wanted to affirm it. It's the right thing, and it will guide you to the answers you're looking for and to the happiness and clarity you're seeking. Trust that you'll get through the short term, because you will, and you will come out smarter than before.

The double life thing: basically when I was a kid I withdrew and experienced my real pleasures internally while putting on a mindless act for my parents in the physical world. As I grew and became more independent, I still maintained the act, but increasingly had places where my parents had no eyes or ears. My conversations with them had nothing to do with what I felt, even though I spoke with them often. I was split between the life I projected I was leading to them and the life I was leading for myself. It wasn't a clear line distinction because I would only dare stray so far from the projected life patterns in my "private" life, but the line was there nonetheless. I think this divide helps lead 9's to drugs, etc. in other cases, though I never got much into that kind of thing.

Do you know your mbti type btw?

> Facets of Unity: The Enneagram of Holy Ideas.

I just ordered a sample! This looks really promising!

And if I haven't recommended it already, please check out "https://www.amazon.in/Into-Great-Depth-your-Being-ebook/dp/B075FXLGXF/ref=tmm_kin_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1559051498&sr=8-1" - Into Great Depth of Your Being.

The focus of this book is to outline how one can bring about tiny changes in one's being or establish a practice to have sustained changes.

Insights from MBTI / Enneagram can be translated into interventions from this book, so this speeds up the process of growth.

Any ways, interestingly, all growth speeds up if one has a steady exercising routine.

So, in terms of attachment theory (this book is great: https://www.amazon.com/Hold-Me-Tight-Conversations-Lifetime/dp/1491513810) he -needs- attachment and connection with his spouse, so there's more of a cost of lashing out on her. He doesn't need you in the same basic, core way. I had assumed you were his roommate but I guess you didn't specify the relationships involved here.


In my case, as the spouse of the 1w2 I feel like I get the brunt of it because she can unload on me and I'm not going to leave. She has to manage/withhold her criticisms of others or they'll leave her and not want to be her friend anymore. They don't have to have her in their lives if they don't want to, so on some level she's motivated to restrain herself in order to preserve those relationships. Because I'm committed to her and won't leave her it's safe to be her real self toward me, even if it's damaging to me and to our overall relationship.

Heres the way, and it's really the only way: you work on detaching yourself from your idea of who you are. Being self-aware and confident in yourself aren't the objectives here, and if you go down that road you'll just swap one ego for another and end up in the same trap. You aren't a 9, you just think you are, and it's this concept that binds you to the pattern of being a 9. Three things that will help:

1. Self Inquiry and other forms of vipassana meditation that forces you to try and find this "self" you've attached to.
   
2. CBT: challenge your thinking and behaviour patterns to dissolve the attachment you feel to "who you are" and free yourself up to become more spontaneous and present.
   
3. Study the enneagram thoroughly, which you seem to be on the path of already. Use it to learn how and why we attach to these "characters" in our heads, the ways in which we do, the various types you resonate with and how you're triggered into these identifications. Most importantly of all: stop settling for the 9 "low hanging fruit". Every type has low hanging fruit, yeres is roughly that short term comfort of feeling like your contribution doesn't matter and so ye can let yourselves off the hook.
   
   Feel free to PM me to discuss more.

If you're going religious, this book was written by the rabbi at a synagogue I used to go to. It also happens to be pretty great.

Cool! Close then :) I guess it also helps that you are a SX.

Here is the contents page of Handwriting Analysis: Putting It To Work For You.

In search of a complementary one I tried Handwriting Psychology which was a lot cheaper if you have downloaded kindle. Here's its contents.

Absolutely-I relate to all of this! That was my first enneagram book, and really shaped what I thought was possible. I’m still uncovering new patterns and layers years later, and I definitely share your fear of letting go of the familiar (pain or comfort).

The practices that have helped me most are journaling, yoga (physical and philosophy), and meditation (present centered awareness). Also spending a lot of time studying the instincts to learn how they communicate with me.

Other resources I’ve found very helpful in getting to know myself:

Mindful living Spiritual Awakening podcast,
The overwhelmed brain podcast,
The Untethered Soul by Michael A Singer, and
this values assessment from the Barrett Values Centre

https://www.amazon.com/Calibans-War-Expanse-James-Corey/dp/0316129062

The Expanse is an amazing sci-fi show too that I can not recommend enough if you like sci-fi.

My church community uses the Enneagram as a way to help understand others on a team and that sort of thing, so a lot of us are at least somewhat familiar with it. We're a younger church, with the majority of us in our 20's (a few crossing into the 30's now, I guess). They actually wrote a book on living in intentional Christian community and used the Enneagram as a framework for organizing the book-- each of the 9 people in the community happened to be a different type, which was kinda cool.

I'd talk to a good counselor/therapist about it primarily, in order to stay away from self-diagnosing. But here is a book that I've found on a subject: https://www.amazon.com/Healing-Unaffirmed-Recognizing-Emotional-Deprivation/dp/0818909188/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1550759268&sr=8-1&keywords=healing+the+unaffirmed+recognizing+emotional+deprivation+disorder

You can also google for scholarly articles on "emotional deprivation."

Sorry you're going through this, there is a lot there and it sounds like that one person is being allowed to consume you.

I'd seriously check out Brene Brown's work on shame. She equates rage and anger to shame, you'd not think it, but it could be really helpful. I listen to her stuff on audiobook because I'm an image type but helpful for anyone imo.

My library has this for free on hoopla, yours may too. https://www.amazon.com/Men-Women-Worthiness-Experience-Enough/dp/B00D4APD3M?SubscriptionId=AKIAILSHYYTFIVPWUY6Q&tag=duckduckgo-d-20&linkCode=xm2&camp=2025&creative=165953&creativeASIN=B00D4APD3M

You might be interested in the work of Helen Palmer. She has a section in that book that analyzes each relationship pairing, including their highs and lows.

Was it this one? https://www.amazon.com/Path-Between-Us-Enneagram-Relationships/dp/0830846425/

> You don't seem forceful at all, I'm genuinely interested in hopefully gaining further knowledge about both types :) Do you mind if I ask what mbti type and enneagram you are ? Also do you know of Miss Melody on youtube? She says she's a 1w2 and I relate a lot to her videos and general persona.

Thank you. And I don't really have much of much a presence within YouTube, so the chances that I know of anything from there is slim.

Wow, I just noticed that my "flair" isn't showing up next to my name any more despite having set it in my subreddit preferences. I guess I'll take this as an opportunity to ask you what your gut instinct is on it? I am always interested in hearing the unbiased feedback of others as a method of gauging how I am coming across to others. What type do I strike you as? My Jungian cognitive stack was determined by an MBTI/Majors PTI certified professional, but my Enneagram type is not, so I am still up in the air about it in some ways – but I do identify with an Enneagram type, and it usually shows up as a tag next to my name (though for some reason that isn't working).

One thing I always caution others about—because I have a lot of experience with how pervasive Edit: typing ones self can be bias can be when typing ones self—is that sometimes, you need an external point of view. Typing ones self is like trying to draw a self portrait via a reflection in a pond; there are so many ripples within our minds and souls caused by many external factors. A lot of personality experts are trained to see through things like falsification, poor type-development, etc. Things that happen at a subconscious level which obstruct the views of ourselves and others from our true selves.

> haha yepp i shouldn't of said the word 'people pleasing' to describe what I do whoopsie. I would like to think that I'm quite connected with my feelings, and talking about feelings comes quite naturally to me but only when it's something I've put thought into already.

It's no trouble, I just didn't want you to label yourself as something generally perceived as negative by accident.

> If I'm put into a position to open up about something that I personally haven't addressed on my own yet, I struggle to articulate myself and i struggle to get to the point. I'm not sure if that would help anything. :p

I think what you're describing is something that most introverts in general experience. I've gone on about this before elsewhere, but simply put, the blood pathways through the brains of introverts are longer than those of extraverts. The areas of the brain associated with long-term memory are what the brain of an introverts goes to as its primary source of information, whereas an extravert's brain is more wired towards short-term memory. Long term memory (conceptually) works based on references and associations—actually, since you are a public speaker, you might be familiar with using cue cards to give your long-term memory a point of reference? I'd highly recommend The Introvert Advantage: How Quiet People Can Thrive in an Extrovert World
by Marti Olsen Laney Psy.D. She does an excellent job of elucidating the entire biological process of both the introverted and extraverted brain – it was an amazing book to read.

Sorry, I got a bit off track there. -.-

> Although I avoid being this way, I can be quite resentful towards people who do not share a genuine interest in bettering themselves or broadening their perspective. I've almost thrown away relationships because I didn't feel that we were on the same wavelength.

I've had issues myself with letting relationships drift apart due to not being on the same wave-length, and I am now starting to regret that somewhat. I wish I had taken the opportunity to get myself on their wavelength and see the world through their eyes so that I had an additional vantage point by which to assess my own thoughts, but I was too stubborn to release my hold on the truths of my own subjective point of view—to realise that perhaps I was wrong. It's a lesson I've learned now though, and additionally, if I have learned anything in my life, it is that everything tends to happen for a reason, but this is a realisation that everyone must reach on their own. If you tell someone who is suffering that they will see the point of it all eventually, you'll just wound them more deeply, and it is not helpful in getting through the moment.

— I'm digressing again... -.-

> In terms of emotions, even before I knew of enneagram, anger was the one emotion that I rarely felt and never wanted to feel, I was almost afraid of it. So in the few times that I have gotten angry it's felt absolutely horrible. I take longer to overcome anger in the moment in comparison to sadness.

I tend to use anger as a means to overpower other strong emotions – because in my heart, anger trumps all other feelings. My anger is almost always focused inward: something that I hate about myself, some stupid mistake I made, or when I am being unproductive and self-defeating by feeling sorry for myself. Anger helped me to silence the deluge of other feelings which made me feel less in control and helpless. Anger was something I could work with—it was something that I could channel in to other more productive things. But it also led to resentment, which was not a good thing. So I had to learn to cope with the other emotions without using anger as a crutch. That is something which I am just now feeling that I have gotten much more control over.

> As I matured and really found things I was truly passionate about, I was quite pushy towards my family and gave them the side eye when it took them a while to conform :'). I'm not so much like this at all outside of family because I honestly see it as ineffective. I'm always gauging whether someone has an open mind and heart and is humble enough to listen.

I can relate to this, but I think for me, the reason behind it was that I saw my family as an extension of myself, and my inner world always conforms to what I desired, but this "inner world" did not. Others on the outer world were safe from this because I accepted the outer world (more often than not) of being non-conforming. That's another thing that I had to work on, but thankfully, I feel as though I am on the tail-end of that journey.

As for me, I always feel as though I am the one who must be humble. I realised a while back how dangerous my own ego—my hubris—was to my life. It blinded me to simple truths, it was part of rejecting reality in favour of my own inner ideology. I don't simply integrate whatever I am told, as I said to you, you are the arbiter of information which you accept as personal truth, and that is how it should be for everyone. There is perfection in that process, and an order to the universe because of it. That old adage: "Order within chaos".

> My poor family get to see the full array of judgement I have, but for the most part being critical is something I keep to myself. I don't want people to think I'm harsh when my intention is to only grow and help others grow.

I'm ashamed to admit the same, my family has been the unfortunate bearer of my journey through life, and I am thankful that they stayed with me all the way through though—even if we don't see eye-to-eye sometimes.

 

Minor edits for grammar and clarification

You could use the different Triads to determine your core type.


Intelligence Triads - Feeling vs Thinking


Feeling Triad (4): Primarily concerned with the development of a self-image. Have common problems with identity and hostility. Problems with identity stem from a rejection of one's own authentic self in favor of a persona that is believed to be more acceptable in some way. Respond with hostility whenever one's crafted identity is not validated. Highly concerned with issues regarding self-esteem, personal value, appreciation, and shame, and with getting others to validate the self-image that has been created. (Key words/phrases: self-image, stories, emotionality, holding on to moods, adapting to affect others)


Thinking Triad (5): Primarily concerned with finding a sense of inner guidance and support. Have common problems with security and anxiety. A pervasive fear or anxiety arises from a profound feeling of lack of support. Find solutions to gain some degree of security as a defense against fear. Cannot get mind to simmer down. (Key words/phrases: mental chatter, figuring it out, strategies, doubt, anxiety, fear, anticipation) Source


Harmonic Triads - Reactive vs Competency


Reactive Group (4): React emotionally to conflicts and people and have difficulties knowing how much to trust others. In conflicts, they want the other person to match their emotional state. They also need to deal with their feelings first, and usually once they are able to do so, things can blow over fairly quickly and permanently. This group also has difficulty balancing their need for independence and self-determination with their need to be nurtured and supported by others. They are either looking for advice and direction or defying it. Specific to the 4: They seek a rescuer who can understand them and support their life and dreams. They want to be seen. They fear abandonment and that no one will care for them. They also fear that they will not have enough support to find and become themselves. They deal with others by limiting access and playing "hard to get" to keep people interested in them, as well as hold on to their supporters.


Competency Group (5): These people deal with difficulty by putting aside personal feelings and striving to be objective, effective, and competent. Subjective needs and feelings are put on the back burner; they try to solve problems logically and expect others to do the same. This group also has issues related to working within the confines of a system or structure. They are not sure how much they want to give themselves over to the values of the system, and how much they want to withhold themselves from it. Specific to the 5: They emphasis being the expert and having deep information. They focus on the process, objective facts, and maintaining clarity and detachment. They manage feelings by splitting off and abstracting them. They also stay preoccupied and cerebral, as if their feelings were happening to someone else. They relate to systems by rejecting the system and wanting to work on their own, outside of it. They have little patience with rules or procedures. Source


Dominant Affect Triads - Frustration vs Rejection


Frustration Group (4): Never seems to be able to find what they are looking for; they can quickly become disenchanted with whatever previously seemed to be the solution to their desires. Specific to the 4: Fours are frustrated that they have not been adequately parented, and unconsciously expect valued others to protect and nurture them. When others fail to live up to their unrealistic expectations, Fours become frustrated and disappointed.


Rejection Group (5): The self is seen as small, weak, and potentially victimized, and others are seen as powerful, abusive, and rejecting. This group goes through life expecting to be rejected and so they defend themselves against this feeling in various ways. They repress their genuine needs and vulnerabilities, attempting to offer some service, ability, or resource as a hedge against further rejection. Specific to the 5: They feel negligible, on the sidelines of life, and therefore must compensate by knowing something or having some special skill so useful to others that they will not be rejected. Fives reduce the pain of rejection by cutting off their feelings from it. Source