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u/Notmyaltaccount12345 · 3 pointsr/churchofchrist

Posting a comment to someone else as top-level, because the original isn’t appearing:


>However, your full disclosure makes it seem like you are posting with a prerogative being a non-Christian in a Christian sub.

I don't think that's the right word you were trying to use, but I think I get what you are trying to say: An agenda, if you will? I'd say that's actually a pretty fair assessment. If you check my post history, you'll come to an understanding rather quickly on my feelings towards the CoC in general. In a broader sense, my "agenda" is to shed some light on the simplified, white-washed history the church sets itself upon, but more specifically calling out legalistic, fundamentalist beliefs and behaviors for what they are.

>I would encourage you to use sources to back up your claims.

Well, then. Sources incoming.

>If you Google “early church used musical instruments” the first few sources I clicked on said the early church did not use instrumental music. I challenge you to do the same and see for yourself instead of taking my word on it.

A challenge? Are you making an assumption that I am unfamiliar with how to perform research? I will point out: simply taking the first couple links' "word for it" is a poor way to research. For example, performing this search of yours results in the the entire first page being nothing but christian news articles or apologetic pages, neither of which approach things from a critical, scholarly perspective. Secondly, I'd like to point out that very little is known about music in the first century, especially among the Jews and Christians, because so much was either never written down or has been lost to the ages. What you'll find, however, is that the use of music was on the tongues of several church fathers. These church fathers made mention of separating themselves from ancient Jewish traditions as well as from pagan practices...these arguments, however, appear to be of man-made opinion, do they not? Here are some sources:

  • LINK - Here is a Master's dissertation by (now) Dr. Jade Weimer. This dissertation explores the Jewish and Pagan roots of instruments used for both liturgical purposes and in idol-worship and describes in detail the factors associated with the early churches' departure from instrumental usage. One thing to point out here is that early Christianity was primarily comprised of former pagans, who had grown up worshiping many gods in various ways. The early church didn't divorce themselves from instruments because God wished for it to be so, but because the leaders in the church wished to separate themselves from their former pagan, idol-worshiping practices.

  • LINK - Here is another Master's dissertation with a similar outline

  • LINK - Here is a research paper detailing, specifically, the church father's thoughts on instrumental music.

  • LINK - Here is a book that covers the pre-Christian musical practices of ancient Israel. This should provide an expanded background on the truncated backgrounds detailed in the first two papers.


    I located these by using simple keyword searches on Google Scholar and SagePub. I'm sure I could find more resources, given more time. If you'd like to read the texts associated with the cited 1st century sources in the above papers, you can find a catalog of nearly everything HERE.

    Edit: clarity

    Edit 2: missed a point:

    >Secondly, no one should think the Old Testament is an apostasy.

    That's not what I meant; apologies for not being clear enough. When I say the NT was all that was and that anything else was apostasy, what I was referring to was not the OT, but to the multiple Christian groups that were coming about and evolving in the 1st century. For example, the only thing we knew about the Gnostics was the polemics against them by other ancient writers. That is, until the 1940's when the Nag Hammadi library was discovered. In fact, there were many Christian sects that were in existence in the first century, from the Essenes, to the Gnostics (although, this is really a compilation of many different groups that all kind-of based their understanding of Christianity and Jesus on the Platonic thought prevalent during the Hellenistic period), the Maniches, etc. A good synopsis of these can be located in Bart Ehrman's book, Lost Christianities. Bart also has a Great Courses class on audible under the same title; the course text can be found HERE. So when I say that all else is apostasy, what I mean is that holding to such a strict adherence to "NT-only Christianity" ignores much of the history on the how and why those letters were chosen, how and why the orthodoxy that "won" among the other sects, etc. This in itself is a huge topic and has been covered time and again by modern scholarship, however, if you'd like me to point you in a direction I can recommend some readings.

    Edit 3: it appears I've been reported or something, so this comment isn't showing up. Sweet

    One more edit to address this point:

    >However, I think the goal is to match the Church how it was in the beginning as closely as possible.

    I actually don't think this is as clear of a picture as some would describe. With the "commands, examples and necessary inferences" mantra, a majority of the 5 acts of worship are built upon inference only. For example:

  • Singing
    • The verses often cited for this are Eph. 5:19 and Col 3:16. In their contexts, neither of these are in reference to a worship setting, as they are both in reference to holy living.
    • There's also 1 Cor 14, which is nearly entirely dedicated to speaking in tongues, however v. 15 is sandwiched in the middle that says "sing with understanding". The greater context of this reveals, however, that one should be singing in an intelligible language, not in a tongue no one understands.
  • Giving
    • The primary verse for this is 1 Cor 16:2, which states "On the first day of every week, each one of you should set aside a sum of money in keeping with your income, saving it up, so that when I come no collections will have to be made." What the context reveals is that Paul is collecting funds to give to the brethren in Jerusalem, which is the finale of his journey. He even asks the congregation to write letters that he will give along with the monetary gift (v3). So, again, there is no command here, but yet another inference.


      I'm sure I could go on, but 2 is enough for now (and I'm running late on some plan's I've made). When approached critically, what we find is that "matching the church of the first century" is a little harder to do than what is proposed. One can infer, sure! One can infer many things about the practices of the early church, but there is no clear biblical picture painted on the topic at all. We do have an extra-biblical text that outlines some practices within the church, The Didache, and this is dated somewhere between 50-120 AD, so it could be rather early, around Paul's writings, or it could be much later...but it outlines in quite a bit of detail on what could be considered "acts of worship."
u/flyingcircle · 1 pointr/churchofchrist

I do remember reading that there were several movements in the 1700's about Agape/Love feasts being reinstituted in several churches like the Church of the Brethren. And a lot of the people from the Restoration Movement grew up in church environments like that. But it was a while ago that I read that. I think it was the book: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0891121544/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1