(Part 2) Top products from r/piano

Back when sightreading was still difficult to me, I started making a very specific effort toward it. I can sightread practically anything on trumpet now. Ultimately, having the technical facility, the understanding of scales/keys is a huge part of it. Beyond that theory can certainly help. Ultimately, while you are reading on sight, a huge part of it is an almost rote thing. There was a point where I would have to actively subdivide and I still do for particularly tricky rhythms, but honestly, you do start to just chunk together huge swaths of music because of their familiarity. The more you play in more styles, the more you see more odd rhythms that may be endemic to that style, and then you sort of internalize it.

So yes, practice and awareness has made me be able to sightread virtually anything on trumpet.

But you asked about piano, so I'll go into that too. My piano sightreading has always been terrible. I didn't start seriously until I was 26 and that was after my music degree. Due to what I do with piano, I haven't spent much time on sightreading and so it hasn't improved much.

But somewhat recently, I decided to start working on it seriously with a solid pedagogical understanding of how it works. I will say that I have improved a great deal in a fairly short amount of time just due to daily diligence (at least until very recently as the gigging of the Christmas season has gotten me see super busy with other projects).

A lot of the ideas are the same. You need technical proficiency. You need a good key/scale understanding. But you also need a deeper theory understanding than on a melodic instrument. You can't chunk as much together if you have to identify notes individually rather than as a chord. You shouldn't think C E G B. You should think "CMaj7" or something in your own mind. It doesn't matter if it it's a chord or arpeggio. Being able to quickly get an idea of the harmonic area you're in and related chords to that really help you look ahead.

A think about sightreading and piano is that many people who are good at it started young. They don't remember when it was hard. They often make suggestions that make it clear to me that they've never done much teaching. "Yeah, just start sightreading Chopin preludes hands together every day." This betrayed the fact that they are at a higher level and are taking for granted advantage they developed when they were younger.

You need to start very simple and make sure you construct all of the necessary scaffolding to allow you to reach higher levels. Progressive exercises are very helpful. Specifically things that are short... 8-16 measures. Also, things you haven't heard before is better than things you have.

I started with the Hannah Smith book which more advanced players might say is too easy. It's over 500 short exercises, mostly hands mirrored, with some extremely simple hand together stuff. I believe it's exclusively 5-finger stuff. It covers a lot of rhythmic ideas mostly in great detail and it covers all keys. Until the very last chapter, there are no key signatures, only written in accidentals, which is actually pedagogically clever as it gets you very comfortable reading accidentals rather than thinking in the key signature and freaking out when you see one.

I also started working through the Paul Harris books. They start ridiculously easy, but sometimes that's a good thing. When working on your sightreading, it's easy to hit a wall because of assumptions of your own skill. You should be able to play things in time. This series of books is great about slowly introducing concepts book by book and making you very subtly aware of expanded foundational ideas in sightreading. They also have ideas of style and written dynamics to make you work on paying attention to that stuff. Both these and the Hannah Smith book are very short, great progressive exercises.

I'm also using the Alfred Adult Books, currently in Volume II. These tend to focus very heavily (perhaps to a fault) on I, IV, and V in the progressions. It makes sense as these are practical simple chords for an adult to learn and be able to play lots of familiar songs.

These are longer in form and many are familiar tunes (which I think isn't a good thing for sightreading as you try to play the rhythm and tune in your mind rather than the on the page), but often the tune or harmony is simplified. It forced you to read what's on the page and not everything will be familiar. These also force you to follow road maps... DS, repeats, codas, etc. So that is good.

These are just resources I'm currently using and I'm sure there are plenty more out there. Now as for the approach.

Basically always play very slowly. You are going for accuracy. Don't read any line more than a few times at most. You don't want to 'learn' anything. You'll likely be repeating the exercises in some form of rotation over a period of time, so don't work on anything. It's the best part of about having tons of very short passages of non-familiar tunes. You can't remember them, so they are essentially fresh each time you look at them even if the concepts are not.

So go through a book like the Hannah Smith books potentially several times. It's long and may take you many days. Maybe aim for a chapter or two a day. Maybe supplement those with some other exercises.

If your scales and arpeggios are weak, make sure you're spending some time on those as well. I also would ay some very slowly Hannon wouldn't be terrible just for making sure your hands are comfortable doing lots of different melodic movements and finding very comfortable fingerings for them.

I'm not a beast at piano even if I am at trumpet. But I do know that the progress I made in a single month was quite substantial, though to be fair, I do have quite an extensive background in a lot of concepts that give me a learning advantage of sightreading.

At the end of the day, my advice probably sounds as dubious and anecdotal as the rest, so like with all advice, take it with a grain of salt, but just know that I actually started from a point of sucking (like could sightread Mary Had a Little Lamb sucking) and have made some significant gains when putting in the time directly toward reading.

I'm sure at some point when I feel like my piano sightreading fundamentals are stronger, I'll probably move on to hymnals, chorales, and any number of other things, but many of those are "cart before the horse" at my currently level and my attempt at that sort of sightreading practice in the past didn't bear much fruit. I had to put the training wheels on to find out what pieces of the puzzle I was missing. If you can humble yourself enough to make sure you have all of the scaffolding, it makes it a more efficient process.

I'm finally reaching a tipping point where it's not an absolutely slog. I can somewhat comfortably read a lot of materials out of childrens' song books and such. Once you can read decently and just start reading everything in sight, it will likely only be downhill from there. Then, like I do with trumpet when I see a tricky rhythm, I make note of it and add it to my belt. Same thing happens with piano and tricky composite rhythms or patterns or contrary motion things (my real Achilles heel).

In the end, it's all pattern recognition and slowly learning to recognize them in such a way that can create instant recall on the fly.

Here is a good summary of four note rootless voicings and Here is a more complete chart.

I start all of my students off with these. The voicings generally take about 1-3 months to get in your fingers (mostly muscle memory). Around 6 months you'll be able to plug them into lead sheets without too much thought, but you probably won't be able to do it in real time. Around 12 months you really won't have to think about them any more. They are a great place to start with voicings because they give you a great sound in a compact one-hand format. Remember that the bass player is covering the root of the chord, so you are more concerned about 3,5,7,9,11,13.

The most two most important things in jazz are keeping your place in the form and playing in time. You can have the hippest voicing but if it's not in the pocket, it's going to sound awful. Likewise, you can have the coolest, most innovative improvisation, but if you're lost in the form, it's not going to flow over the changes.

Play with a metronome, ALWAYS. Explore play-along tracks, Jamey Aebersold books being the most well-known. There are also great online resources for play-along tracks. Check out here for a great place to start. These are also fun.

Get started on ear training yesterday. It'll help a lot. I like this trainer as it has a lot of things tailored towards jazz musicians. It has some simple play-along tracks too.

If you need something basic just to get by for now (while learning the voicings I linked above) then really start to learn the thirds and sevenths of chords. These are called guide tones and they are all you really need to define a chord. Try playing an A3 and an E4 in your right hand over an F2 in your left hand. There's a nice voicing for the Fmaj7 you listed above. It sounds a whole lot cooler than FAC and will get you started thinking about splitting your voicings up to use more of the keyboard. You want to get to the point where you see a chord on the page and you instantly know what the third and the seventh of the chord is. Make sure you get the correct third and seventh:

• Major7th Chord: Major Third, Major Seventh | C E G B
  
• Minor7th Chord: Minor Third, Minor Seventh | C Eb G Bb
  
• Dominant7th Chord: Major Third, Minor Seventh | C E G Bb
  
  Learn those combinations and see if you can get through a lead sheet naming thirds and sevenths as you go.
  
  There's really a whole lot more I could write about the topic, but this might be enough to get you started.
  
  If you have specific songs that you need help with, don't hesitate to ask. I would be happy to work out some simple arrangements/voicings/solos with you.
  
  Good luck!
  
  
  
  

I do NOT want to discourage you - but I don't think there is a quick way to learn music thory. It takes time and practice and experience. But it is definitely possible! Just think of it as a language : the written dot on the staff corresponds to a pitch - just like an a corresponds to the sound a. It must become natural. So I guess my advice is to read a LOT of music. Every day, if possible, and of different styles (classical, modern etc.) If you want your pieces to really sound original, you have to know what others have written before you - and learn from their craft.
That being said, I think there is a good deal of great books about harmony that you can read to guide your development, I will list a few here :

• Arnold Schoenberg : Theory of Harmony (A bit tedious to read, but with great many examples)
  
• Arnold Schoenberg : Fundamentals of Musical Composition This one is great but a bit advanced; I suggest you read it when you master the harmony basics.
  
• Carl Schroeder & Keith Wyatt : Harmony and Theory: A Comprehensive Source for All Musicians This one is recommended, but I didn't read it myself.
  
• Barbara Wharram : Elementary Rudiments of Music. This one I grew up with. Very straightforward and clear.
  
  Might I suggest that you play all the examples and excercies at the piano so that you train your ear to hear what you see.
  
  Also, you might want to contact a piano teacher and take lessons for a year... or two. Technique is a great part of playing, and is very difficult to learn on his own.
  
  Sorry for the long post, but I love music and want to help a fellow player. Also, sorry for potentialy awkward sentences, english is not my first language.
  
  Hope this helps!

I know it's a contentious group of pieces, but I've had incredible luck with Hanon. If you can read music and play hands together, I highly recommend it.

I took lessons for 13 years, but since I've been in college I've been self teaching. I've always really loved piano and I have decent technique, but I never really learned things in a way that wasn't sloppy. I decided I wanted to change that, and I sat down and learned all 3 parts of Hanon exactly as instructed in the book. It's not a perfect method, but I play through it every day now and honestly my technique is miles beyond what it used to be. I wish I had learned as a beginner so badly it hurts.

So my suggestion to you is this: buy this book (http://www.amazon.com/Hanon-Virtuoso-Exercises-Complete-Schirmers/dp/0793525446/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1414561983&sr=1-1&keywords=hanon), play through it every day (no matter how boring it may get) exactly as instructed. It takes a little under an hour to play the whole book at tempo, and I imagine you'll be preoccupied learning all of the etudes for quite a while.

I'm a firm believer that we can all craft ourselves into excellent pianists, and all I think you need to do that is repertoire and a will to practice and make a sound that you like. Once you have the technique from the Hanon down, you can get started on any number of pieces. Another very good method is Bela Bartok's Mikrokosmos, which my mean, Hungarian teacher made me slave away at for years. It comes in 6 volumes, the first of which is (http://www.amazon.com/Mikrokosmos-Pink-English-French-Hungarian/dp/1423493044/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1414562208&sr=1-1&keywords=mikrokosmos).

If you were to learn a significant amount of the material from either of those methods, you would be a significantly better pianist. If classical piano isn't necessarily the route you want to go, you'll still be well served by either/or.

The most important thing is to play whenever the urge strikes you, in my experience. It becomes a bit of an addiction, but there's such a huge world of piano music out there that you'll never grow bored with it, and you'll certainly never run out of things to do. Best of luck.

Hey man, glad you have picked up piano! I'm by far not the best pianist out there, but I can give you some advice on this.

When I was younger (elementary to middle school) I would practice each piano piece I knew 10 times a day and then continue to learn the piece I was on. I can tell you that while I did learn quickly, just as quickly I began to not like piano. Then on the opposing side, near the end of middle school throughout high school I would only play when I went to my piano teacher. As you can probably tell, my progress slowed down incredibly and I believe I only learned about 4 pieces over that time. Now I am finally back into piano after a 4 year hiatus and while I am practicing every day I still only put in about half an hour and on rare occasions will put in an hour.

My point in saying this is that you should prioritize playing and practicing so that you still enjoy it versus trying to hit some kind of benchmark because you feel you have to.

If you really feel like you want to be playing more than you are my tip is pretty simple and is one I employ all the time. Just have more than one practice session per day. I often will spend 10-15 minutes on the piano at a time but will go back multiple times a day whenever I feel an urge. It will all add up to an hour in the end and you won't feel like you are forcing yourself to continue playing when you don't want to.

As for scales, like I said i'm not the best player in the world, I only really know C major and A minor (the gimme ones because they have no flats or sharps). It is definitely important to know if you want to go into composing or are going to school for it, but for a casual player it isn't the end all be all if you don't know them. Knowing your scales is definitely important when you are sight reading hard pieces as you can pretty much just make an assumption as to how the continue the piece without having to dictate all of your energy to reading every note. That being said, it is still possible to sight read (albeit more slowly) pieces without knowing all the theory.

Finally, if you want to add something to your practice without having to learn new pieces or just work on the piece you are on you could definitely try out Henle's virtuoso pianist.

https://www.amazon.com/Virtuoso-Pianist-Exercises-Technique-Schirmers/dp/0793551218/ref=asc_df_0793551218/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=312030486371&hvpos=1o1&hvnetw=g&hvrand=3857077932830151143&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9019572&hvtargid=pla-473618322154&psc=1

This will also help you with scale memorization and technique.

I had been practicing for about a bit less than a year before I decided to take up sightreading seriously. Similarly, when I was younger, my teacher didn't really ever teach me to sight read, so I mostly used the sheet to figure out how to move my fingers then never looked back.

That being said, I want to say that noticeable results were actually pretty quick. Within a week or two I was actually following and reading notes much better. At this point, I had bought a small sightreading book with about 50 or so small 5 bar pieces. I don't recommend this one, it's not very good in my opinion. I started on Bartok's Mikrokosmos next. This is where I saw the most improvement in a short time. This was the most helpful because his music tends to be pretty dissonant and doesn't sound how you'd expect. When you can't really predict the next note easily, it really forces you to read the sheet. I HIGHLY recommend this book. It works really well on a lot of levels. It's good for beginners and gets progressively more difficult as you go. It does spike in difficulty somewhat fast, so so use some of the other resources I linked below.

Though when I say improvements I don't mean I could sight read a Liszt concerto. I just mean that I had begun a mentality shift away from muscle movements and looking at the keys to actively looking at the sheet.

Here's another thread with a bunch of useful materials. A lot of these can be found online for free as well. I used the Gurlitt pieces as well, which were helpful. I can't vouch for it all, because I haven't played all the pieces, but if you worked your way through all those pieces in a week or two, you would see massive differences.

After using a lot of those pieces I got into the Bach Chorales because I had somewhat of a foundation for reading sheet at this point. I wouldn't really recommend it as a starter book. Go to Mikrokosmos for that.

Some materials I am using now is a big book of Chopin works. I take it pretty slowly and make a bunch of mistakes, but it's pretty helpful for recognizing chords which is a skill in it's own.

Some tips for practice:

• Try to consume as much music as possible. Online, hard sheet, anything. Just make sure you aren't retaining any of the music and if you do play it again, you shouldn't be able to remember the specifics of the piece.
  
  
• Sight reading is mentally exhausting, which is good to keep in mind. There's a lot of days where I really don't want to do it because it is one of the most mentally strenuous activities I do. You have to push yourself a bit.
  
  
• Take it slowly. You don't need to play up to the recommended tempo if you cant play at that speed. Play at a speed where you make the least mistakes. That's where you retain the most. Use a metronome as well. Don't play at different speeds, keep a consistent tempo.
  
  
• Sight reading is not much more different from the actual reading of words. Your brain does some pretty interesting things when reading. It clumps a jumble of letters into a word (notes in a chord), and reads ahead of what you are actively processing. It's very hard to read ahead with sheet, so don't worry about it too much. It comes with time and practice. Just keep both of these in mind.

Yeah i wasn't too impressed with the NU1, plus thats an upright action rather than grand.

I would say probably close to 80% of my playing is done with my headphones. I think people run into issues trying to use headphones they already own that are not ballanced properly or do not make proper contact with the headset jack. My recommendation is plan on $100-150 for a set of studio head phones I use These and have no issues with them at all, on any digital piano. And I can wear them for quite a while comfortably.

The lid is pretty much up anytime im playing with the headphones, it just sounds better.

The sound position is primarily on player, since I am playing. Just like the Hall simulator Effect is usually Off or set to room when i am practicing. Now I do change these every now and then, more if I am working on making sure notes are clear and not muddled, changing the sound position can sometimes give a good idea, and the Hall Simulator I like to use when I am playing pieces that i know well enough that i can just sit at any piano and play them. The different reverb effects are pretty cool sometimes. But this feature I view more as a bonus to have fun with.

First what you want to do is probably get a decent book of beginner songs and just work your way through them.

The piano literature series is popular, but I personally have not used them. I know volume 2 has a bunch of popular songs like Sonatina that everyone plays.

Burgmuller is also very popular among intermediate beginners.

You probably also want to get Hanon because everyone uses it for warm ups no matter what level, and it has all the scales.

And you might want Czerny, which are really short decent sounding pieces that people use for warmups.

These few books will get you started. Just start working through the books. Work on something from all three or four books.

Just a note. You'll probably be very enthusiastic in the beginning and get really bored before you reach your third month. You need to persist if you want to get good. I personally did not enjoy playing piano until I got pretty good and was able to play the more virtuoso piano pieces.

The kind of headphone jack you have on stuff like phones and portable music players is a 1/8 inch jack. What Yamaha refers to as a "standard stereo phone jack" is a 1/4 inch jack, which is pretty common on older and/or non-portable equipment (stereo receivers, for instance).

You can buy an adapter that will let you use headphones you have with the big stereo jack for a few bucks. They're really cheap. Some headphones come with one (those are actually the headphones I use with my keyboard).

You don't HAVE to spend a lot on headphones but the better your headphones the better it'll sound. I like the over-ear Sonys because they're comfortable and sound good, but they're a considerably bigger investment than $2 for an adapter.

It's probably worth spending a few bucks for an adapter and seeing if you're happy with the headphones you have -- you can upgrade if you're not.

It is really best that he tries out the various possibilities before you plunk down the money for one. For example, the YPG-235 only has 76 keys (full size is 88). Can he really make do with that? Which one does he like the feel of the keys best? Which one sounds best to him? Does he really need/want the hundreds of extra voices on the YPG?

Alexis digital pianos are basically beginner pianos mostly meant for parents who don't want to spend a lot of money to see if their child will like playing piano. They are cheap and sound like it, tend to have quality issues, and definitely are not suitable for busking.

For your price range, my suggestion would be the Yamaha P-45 (or Amazon's "exclusive" version, the P-71 ). Keep in mind that you will have to spend another $30 or so for a stand (which should at minimum be double-X style, not a single-X which are wobbly).

I hope this helps a bit.

Do note, this is coming from someone that took lessons since I was young and went through courses to be a music educator in college so I may not have the most relatable experience, but here's my take.

I say it depends on the kinds of music you want to learn and play that will influence on what you should be focusing on.

There are beginner books for adults available such as this one that will go through beginning concepts at a much quicker pace than what I went through as a child. A lot of my music friends used something similar (can't find the one they used, sorry) to pass a piano proficiency exam. They did have a professor coach them through, which streamlined the process.

I'd suggest going this route (teacher + adult beginner book) as it will give you the best foundation that can be branched off into whatever interest you have. You'll learn a lot of fundamentals such as proper posture and reading sheet music and you'll do it at a much faster pace than if you were younger.

There are other alternatives too. I had a dorm mate from Costo Rico that just wanted to learn how to jam on the piano when his buddies whips out their classical guitars. So I spent an evening teaching him how scales are formed and how major/minor chords are formed. After a couple weeks of practicing and asking a few questions during that time, he got to the point where he could jam with his buddies. He couldn't read sheet music, but if we tell him what chord and scale, he'd figure out what sounded all right and jam along. He could also look at chords online of simple songs and he'd be able to figure out an arrangement on the piano he could manage within a week.

Hope this helps a bit in your decision :)

Try to find some used pianos.

https://www.guitarcenter.com/Used/Pianos.gc#narrowSideBar

and also your local craigslist/letgo/offerup

also on amazon:

• Alesis Recital Pro ~$270 with amazon harmony discount + prime store 10% cash back
  
  >* https://www.amazon.com/dp/B072FKLXRB/
  
  
  
• Yamaha P45/P71 (same thing but 71 is cheaper) and it can be midi compatiable if you download the drivers: https://usa.yamaha.com/products/musical_instruments/pianos/p_series/p-45/downloads.html
  
  It comes out to $330, maybe 380 with tax.
  
  
  >* https://www.amazon.com/Yamaha-Weighted-Digital-Sustain-Amazon-Exclusive/dp/B01LY8OUQW
  
  
  
• Casio Privia PX-160, about $450 total with prime card cashback + harmony discount
  
  >* https://www.amazon.com/Casio-Privia-PX160BK-88-Key-Digital/dp/B0100RBPTC/r
  
  
  For the Prime Store Cash back you need to get the amazon store card (a credit card, you recieve 5% back on all amazon purchases, but sometimes, like for instruments you can recieve 10% back.) and for the Harmony discount you go to the product page and press the call me button and ask for the Harmony promo code. The %of the code varies between 5% to 18% so in total you can save 15% to 28%

Here's everything I bought for mine:

• Bench - $30
  
  
• Stand - $60
  
  
• [Garritan CFX VST] (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00KLFF91O/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1) - $170
  
  
• Audio Interface - $100 Comes with ableton which can be used to record the midi and also comes with a free addictive keys piano. Pretty nice for the price. There's about 7 ms of latency when I use this setup on my laptop which is completely unnoticeable.
  
  
• [VPC 1] (https://www.musicstore.de/en_US/EUR/Kawai-VPC1-Masterkeyboard/art-SYN0004258-000) - About $1400 dollars after shipping and a duty tax of $76 will be charged if you live in the U.S. Still cheaper than I was able to find it elsewhere
  
  You'll also need a nice pair of speakers or headphones. I use the Audio-Technica ATH-AD700x's which are open back and they sound pretty good. I actually got a set of Sterling MX5 studio monitors in addition to my headphones to set on top of the piano and they sound amazing. If you ever think you will be playing for anyone or performing I recommend getting a pair of the MX5's. It's about $200 and then $10 for a cable. They will hook right up to the audio interface.

You're right on the first point. On the second point, I would say to you that using good fingerings may be deceptively difficult, and it doesn't necessarily correspond with the difficulty of your piece. Something as simple as a closed position (within an octave) C major chord in 2nd inversion in the left hand can throw you off. Typically, you'd want to use 5 on the G, 2 on the C, and 1 on the E, but a lot of students try to use 5 on the G, 3 on the C, and 1 on the E. 5 - 2 - 1 is the better choice. I'm just talking about this chord as if it's an isolated thing, where you're coming from and where you're going will effect your fingering, so you might not be using 5 - 2 - 1. It depends.

You might think that you're using the best fingering because it feels most comfortable, but sometimes what's most comfortable isn't necessarily the best fingering, especially for beginners.

It might be a good idea to practice your major and minor scales and arpeggios with the correct fingering. Check out Hanon to learn all of your major and minor scales and arpeggios. If I remember correctly, they only have the harmonic minor scales, not melodic or natural. That wouldn't effect the fingering though.

I don't yet own any of her music, but one of my professors has pointed me in the direction of Dianne Goolkasian-Rahbee for this sort of music. She's published by FJH. Here's her bio page on FJH's site, which has a link to her music published there. To my understanding she writes many pieces with the goal of exposing students with less experience to 20th century compositional techniques. Looking her up in Jane Magrath's The Pianist's Guide to Standard Teaching and Performance Literature, Magrath mentions of Goolkasian-Rahbee's Pictures, Op. 3
> Contemporary writing that is imaginative and fits the hand well. Performance directions are included and creative instructions for improvisation on the given score are sometimes included. Should be better known.

Best of luck.

[Czerny's 30 exercises are great] (https://www.amazon.com/Practical-Method-Beginners-Pianoforte-Op/dp/0793525675/ref=sr_1_sc_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1505531391&sr=8-1-spell&keywords=czeerny)


I would also recommend playing a few pieces from Bach, his music really reinforces right/left hand independence. Every time I sat down and committed to a Bach piece I came out a much better pianist.

Aside from that it takes time and commitment. For me it too a solid 6-8 months to really start getting comfortable with the mind/muscle connection associated with hand independence when playing.

Buy a Hanon book.

If you've been playing a good bit, get the original.

If you're really just getting started, consider getting the junior book. Most of the exercises serve the same purpose, the notation is just a bit easier to read.

Each exercise is a little different, and focuses on different skills and techniques that will help you boost finger strength and dexterity.

It would help if we knew more about your own level of knowledge too. For instance I could recommend Schoenberg's Theory of Harmony or Levine's Jazz Piano Book but those books expect a lot out of their readers, so you may be better off with simpler books.

One book I liked a lot was Carl Humphries The Piano Handbook. It doesn't assume you know much and goes over a lot of material without a lot of depth. It might be a good starting point. It has something to say about pretty much every musical style from 1400 to today.

EDIT: I just reread your post and see you already have the piano handbook.

As a six-month player you probably need to work on physical technique more than anything. And you'll need a teacher for that. :( Can you find one to even meet once a month for 30 minutes?

I am just starting to get into jazz myself, and someone on here recommended the book intro to jazz piano. I have been going through it and it seems to be a good introduction to comping, soloing, and melody treatment in jazz. https://www.amazon.ca/Intro-Jazz-Piano-Leonard-Keyboard/dp/1617803103. A lot of people on this sub also recommend the jazz theory book or jazz piano book by Mark Lavine. This book isn't very beginner friendly however. Another thing many jazz musicians seem to stress is the importance of ear training and transcribing. I have also read that you should expose your self to as much jazz music as you can as well. Finally, you will learn much quicker if some one teaches you. You can ask fellow jazz musicians for tips or simply watch how they play or practise. You will benefit a lot from a good jazz teacher! Like I said, I am a beginner so hopefully someone with more experience will chime in.

I actually have been self teaching myself the basics of jazz using two good resources with some input from my teacher (which does not focus on jazz). First of all Improvising Blues Piano by Tim Richards is really good, with a focus obviously in improvisation. After doing part of that book to understand the basics he recommends moving up to Exploring Jazz Piano 1. Since you have 18 years of classical experience you're probably going to be familiarized with most of the concepts and you can just focus on understanding the style and ideas for improvisation. Honestly I find it very helpful and throughout Richards has "assignments" you can do to further expand. Also in the songs themselves there is a reccomendation of notes you can use within the scale you're working on to improvise. Very complete overall.

http://www.amazon.com/Improvising-Blues-Piano-Tim-Richards/dp/0946535973/ref=sr_1_sc_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1421076430&sr=8-1-spell&keywords=impprovising+blues+piano

http://www.amazon.com/EXPLORING-HARMONY-TECHNIQUE-IMPROV-Schott/dp/190245524X/ref=sr_1_sc_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1421076430&sr=8-3-spell&keywords=impprovising+blues+piano

They're from this series by Paul Harris:
https://www.amazon.com/Improve-Your-Sight-Reading-Piano-Elementary/dp/0571533116/

Yeah, I like them. They're filled with 4-bar exercises, and I tend to do one a day, which takes me 10-15 mins.

It has a good difficulty curve, never too hard or too easy. He has the exercises roughly grouped by scale, so you pick up a bit of scale-knowledge along the way.

I'm not saying the books make it easy, I think learning to sight-read requires a lot of work whatever route you take. But the way he has it broken up into small exercises is probably the best way of going about it. I'm starting to see benefits now when working on other songs of being able to recognise the notes quicker.

First of all you have to eradicate the idea that you are junking up their sound. As long as you are vaguely playing the same chords as them you are adding body to the sound, even if you only play a single root position chord at the beginning of each measure.

Also, get into the habit of working out the chords relative to each other e.g. I - IV - V - IV instead of, say, F Major - B flat Major - C Major - B flat Major. More often than not jazz/blues/pop/Broadway pianists are required to play in a key other than the one notated (e.g. to fit the range of a vocalist). Fake books indicate the chords in relation to the melody, but you will have to get used to transposing.

Although you may not be interested in Jazz specifically, if you assimilate the principals of jazz piano, almost anything else will seem easy in comparison. There's a great book by Mark Levine called The Jazz Piano Book which starts from the absolute basics and takes you through to solid proficiency (sorry I could only find a kindle edition, but there must be a hard copy available somewhere).

I've been using the Paul Harris "Improve Your Sight-Reading!" books and they have been great. They gradually move you from stupid simple, introduce a new technique/rhythm/key signature/something every chapter in a really logical way. I started with just basic grade 1 about 6 months ago and am now on grade 4, and the difference in my sight reading ability is pretty danged amazing.

https://www.amzn.com/0571533116

Learned by plugging my keyboard into my computer and using Synthesia to show me bit by bit. I realize it's better to learn using sheet music instead of sheer muscle memory but like I said, I'm stupidly impatient and determined to learn my favorite piano piece regardless. I did however recently start taking piano lessons so I am now learning music comprehension.

Question for you all: should I invest in a weighted keyboard so as to play ragtime and other pieces properly? Since playing Maple Leaf with weighted keys mine feels like a flimsy toy. And it's of course harder to make the transition. I'm seriously considering saving up this summer for the Yamaha P45B as it feels and sounds incredible compared to mine. Thoughts?

I'd recommend The Jazz Piano Book or The Jazz Theory Book, both by Mark Levine. There's a ton of great stuff in both, and they'll teach you how jazz musicians conceive of how they play—not to mention give you a foundation to play pretty much any popular style that strikes your fancy.

I'm 21 years old, and have been dealing with depression for a few years now. In order to help combat this, I'm trying to do things that I've always wanted to do, including learning to play piano.

I was looking at 88 key weighted electronic keyboards, and I was wondering if anyone had any recommendations? Is there one that reigns over the rest as the best?

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00UJ9LNDK/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_EVWcAbVP0HW6K this is the one I sort of had my eye on, but definitely not set on anything.

TIA

I have a Yamaha P-45 and like it a lot. Besides price, weighted keys/general feel were my primary importance when looking and going from playing on purely acoustic pianos for 10+ years to digital out of necessity I think they feel pretty good and true to the real thing.

You can get the P-45 for $400 right now on most websites (down from the usual $450) and fits your criteria. I bought mine on B&H Photo-Video-Audio to save the ~$30 tax that would have been charged buying it in person and on most other websites. As for sustain pedal and stand, those have done me well. Full setup for ~$484 with Amazon's tax. Not bad if you ask me.

My advice: If you're not absolutely sure what you want, go to a music store and try out as many keyboards as you can until you find something you like. The Guitar Center near me had a P-45, its big brother the P-115, and a few others on display you could mess around with.

Also, if you do end up going with a digital keyboard and get it shipped to your house, make sure everything works before throwing the packaging away (there's lots of it). The first one I got had a dead key but after contacting B&H they did a good job with returning it and sending me a replacement.

The Sony MDR-7506's are my go to headphones for when I'm producing music or DJing as they produce clear, crisp, natural sound. I'm new to playing piano, but they've worked great for this too! I bought mine for $100, 6 years ago. They're $80 on Amazon now.

https://smile.amazon.com/Sony-MDR7506-Professional-Diaphragm-Headphone/dp/B000AJIF4E/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1482709339&sr=8-1&keywords=sony+mdr+7506

If you really have your basic chords and scale theory down, I would recommend a book that was recommended by my teachers : Arnold Schoenberg's Theory of Harmony. It is a very deep theory book that challenges a lot of the preconceptions that existed (and still exist) before its realease around 1910. I started reading it and it is a great book indead, though I lack some elementary knowledge to get the best out of it.

Czerny has lots of good stuff.

As well as the popular 'school of velocity' (op 299 linked below), there is Op 599 that whilst entitled 'for beginners', actually comprehensively covers many areas of technique. They are far more 'musical' than Hanon and, of course, you can elect to play them at whatever velocity you choose (which often takes something from 'simple' to 'fairly advanced'. I've been using them as sight reading and once I get to the end I'll work backwards and learn one or two a week properly

There is a whole set of lessons online here that would probably be perfect for you:

• http://www.howtoplaypiano.ca/?page_id=67 (his Youtube page is: http://www.youtube.com/user/Lypur)
  
  Also checkout the links and discussions under "Getting Started as a Beginner" in the sidebar -------->.
  
  Although we don't have too many online resources like the one above. See the other information and links in the FAQ too.
  
  You could also get a book like this:
  http://www.amazon.com/Alfreds-Self-Teaching-Adult-Piano-Course/dp/0739052055/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1342832792&sr=8-3&keywords=teach+yourself+piano
  
  Ideally you could eventually pursuade your parents to pay for lessons or you could get a job and pay for it yourself haha. One of the keys to learning to do any activity is having someone who can guide you, give you feedback, answer questions, etc.

Since you are just starting out, your emphasis right now needs to be on developing a solid basis of technique, . For the next 2 years I recommend you alot your practice time as follows:

• 1/3 to scales and arpeggios
  
  
• 1/3 to exercises - Hanon is the classic starter book. Czerny is a more challenging and interesting addition.
  
  
• 1/3 to pieces
  
  After 2 years, once you have built up your dexterity, then you can begin alotting a greater portion of your time to practicing pieces.
  
  Please note that this time estimate is based on my experience, playing for 3 hours/day during my formative training years. If you are practicing less, it may take longer for you to build your dexterity.

Lots of research and personal experience.

Up until last month, I was constantly running out of things to play because I played a high quantity of pieces, but I was limited in what I could play due to me not being a very good piano player. Except for the Swinstead and Gurlitt Op. 140 and 205, I've played at least some pieces from every book on the list, thus I'm able to accurately judge the difficulty of these pieces.

I've found a lot of material by reading through Jane Magrath's book on repertoire for beginners, my teacher provided me with some suitable material, and I recently bought pretty much every book from ABRSM's collection of 'Easier Piano Music'.

I use the Sony MDR-7506 headphones. They come with 3.5mm plug and a 6.3mm adapter, so they should fit your piano. I find them comfortable and the sound quality is great.

If you are thinking about that book, (which I do like, and used with many of my adult students) - I'd suggest getting this instead. It's exactly the same book but the left hand pages contain advice on things a piano teacher would be looking out for if you had one. It's not the same as actual lessons, but it's a big improvement over just guessing.

I bought a Roland FP-30 a while back, and it was well worth the money. It's not super expensive for a piano. But as a beginner, I don't know if you'd be looking to spend that much.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62_LCDLQsU4

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Roland-FP-30-Digital-Piano-Black/dp/B01B3FBDC4?th=1

It has weighted keys n all that. I use it during the night with headphones, just like you were looking to do, and play my Grand during the day.

Many online retailers offer discounts if you contact them.

Amazon Harmony (there is a link to have them call you on the items page). You have to speak to a rep but you can get ~15% off. Also, if you have an amazon credit card you get an additional 10% back. This brings the PX160 down ~23% + tax.

Guitar Center also offers 15% off if you call a rep through a number listed at the top of their site.

Las Vegas Music has a discount if you call/chat too but I don't know how much.

All of these are to get around MAP (minimum advertised prices).

Reading music is a habit more than skill, so i don't think you need any resources on that apart from the basics you'll find anywhere on the internet. As for learning actual jazz piano, i really liked Tim Richards' "Exploring jazz piano" vol 1 and 2. They're "project" based, every new song introduces a new concept and has basic to advanced exercises to build on those concepts. It also introduces improv and music theory straight away, which is a much more fun approach in my opinion.

https://www.amazon.com/EXPLORING-HARMONY-TECHNIQUE-IMPROV-Schott/dp/190245524X

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1617803103/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s01?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Intro to Jazz. Published by Hal Leonard. I've maybe a quarter way through, and I've learned a lot already! It throws a ton of theory at you, though, so if you don't even know the Circle of 5ths, then it may be a bit too advanced in some regards. Nonetheless, I absolutely love this book so far, and I'd highly recommend it.

For sure, I paid roughly $600 just for my P-105. I must admit though the full stand will make your life so much better. The piano will stay stable and not move around. Definitely worth the price. I really like that sustain pedal as well. I hate the simple square one I have, so that's another plus of this bundle. The last thing would be just replacing that chair, I've never used a scissor style chair, but it can't be any more stable than a scissor stand. I'd recommend replacing that if you start really getting into piano.

I like this book, it's pretty informative.

It's pretty theory heavy, so you should still try and listen to a lot.

This is the best book I have ever used. It grades so many pieces (you will never finish playing) and has a few sentences explaining the piece or what it's about. Extremely useful index by historical period and composer, and find what pieces are accessible to you.

If you're going to print it you might as well just buy a published version, the pages will be larger and better quality and easier to read, it's on Amazon for $3.99:

http://www.amazon.com/Virtuoso-Pianist-Sixty-Exercises-Piano/dp/tags-on-product/0793551218

I'd consider a Roland FP30.
88 keys, weighted, nice to play and hear, several sounds, has metronome and midi built-in recorder, about 700 dollars on amazon, I think. Not too big and not too heavy compared to other similar models. IMHO good for beginners, intermediates and even more.
You can get an idea of the specs at the below link, but I'd definitely try it out at a local shop before buying it.

https://www.amazon.com/Roland-FP-30-DIGITAL-PIANO-Black/dp/B01B3FBDC4

Mark Harrison's books are pretty good - maybe start with this one then move onto the jazz piano one. If you can read music to a basic level, and are happy to come back to theory points later if you don't fully get them the first time round so as not to get bogged down or discouraged, you should find a lot to learn in there.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Blues-Piano-Leonard-Keyboard-Instruction-x/dp/0634061690

I've really enjoyed the Hal Leonard Keyboard Style Series, which covers a wide range of styles. These books will start from the basics of each genre from past to present. Each book comes with a cd of each exercise being played so you can hear how it is supposed to sound as well.

That's fantastic! If you're looking around $800 the Roland FP-30 prices at $700 is great, but if you want something that looks a bit more traditional, the Yamaha P-125 with Cabinet is about $830 on amazon.

I use an older model of this I went to guitar center one day and played all the ones they had and picked the one I felt go closest to the expressiveness I was looking for. I'd definitely recommend doing something similar before you buy even if you'll eventually order online - they may even price match you

There’s a few ways to go for this. There’s a Sight Reading book series that has multiple levels for beginners to advanced readers. There’s also a couple of helpful websites.

Sight Reading Factory (paid)
The Sight Reading Project

There’s definitely more out there of course.

If you want to learn how to sightread, I suggest you check out:

• [Bartok Mikrokosmos Books on Sightreading](http://imslp.org/wiki/Mikrokosmos,_Sz.107_(Bart%C3%B3k,_B%C3%A9la) ^^Amazon
  
• Burgmuller's 25 Progressive Studies/Etudes (Sidenote: Do this if you're a medium level sight reader)
  ^^Amazon
  
  If you wish to become better at endurance, dexterity, fingering, etc., I suggest you take a look at:
  
  
• [Czerny's Practical Method for Beginners](http://imslp.org/wiki/Practical_Exercises_for_Beginners,_Op.599_(Czerny,_Carl) ^^Amazon
  
• [Liszt Technical Exercises](http://imslp.org/wiki/Technische_Studien,_S.146_(Liszt,_Franz) (Use if you're a bit advanced) ^^Amazon
  
  
  If you want to know what level you are at piano, check out ABRSM
  
  
  IMPORTANT SIDENOTE: The IMSLP links don't work due to Reddit's formatting system, so when you click them, add a ")" (without quotes) to the end of the URL link.

99 extra on amazon...and yeah thats what i meant by it having a better feel. i still use my yamaha, but the keys feel a lot cheaper and lighter. the casio is more like an acoustic. https://www.amazon.com/Casio-Privia-PX160BK-88-Key-Digital/dp/B0100RBPTC/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1497894594&sr=8-2&keywords=casio+privia There might be another model which is slightly cheaper, i swore i saw one for $479.

I personally picked up a Yamaha P95 as a beginner and am fairly happy with it. As a newbie, I can't compare the action of the keys, but they feel similar to a real piano. The extra features are nice, but are never really used (metronome is probably the only thing). I did buy a midi controller so I could use software on my computer for practicing, sounds, and recording. The price you are quoted seems kind of high to me, unless you are getting the stand too. I got mine brand new for 399$ (without the stand).

My last teacher recommended "Exploring Jazz Piano" by Tim Richards as a great book to get into Jazz. The author has a similar book on Blues (Improvising Blues Piano).

I got this book a few days ago and it looks very solid. I'm still at the level where the first few pages are giving me grief, but it all looks achievable.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Improvising-Blues-Piano-easy-grasp/dp/0946535973

The two volumes of jazz material in the same series are intended to follow on from this book as well.

I haven't played one, so I don't know. This sub likes to recommend the P45, which is the same price on Amazon right now. https://www.amazon.com/Yamaha-Weighted-Digital-Sustain-Standard/dp/B00UJ9LNDK?th=1

You will need a stand and a pedal, though.

There are books, such as Intro to Jazz piano. On youtube, there's Michael New who has great videos about music theory and Bill Hilton who has videos about jazz and blues.

Definitely, the only other complaint i"ve seen is that the full combined set of Czerny books is big and kind of cumbersome to try and set up on many stands/pianos (especially digital ones with relatively flimsy stands) so if you just want to start out with the first volume.

You can also save a couple bucks buying this version: https://www.amazon.com/Practical-Method-Beginners-Op-599/dp/0793525675/ref=pd_sbs_14_1/146-7772873-1196205?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=0793525675&pd_rd_r=1ddf146f-a969-11e9-85ce-aff8187a0e51&pd_rd_w=iCFBw&pd_rd_wg=XQAFs&pf_rd_p=588939de-d3f8-42f1-a3d8-d556eae5797d&pf_rd_r=VZ57KF2TQTAH2Q8MHZVK&psc=1&refRID=VZ57KF2TQTAH2Q8MHZVK . If you need to hear demonstrations of the etudes, you can find plenty on youtube.

The FAQ says that the starting price of keyboards worth getting if you want to study piano cost $500. There are a lot of keyboards that will be cheaper. Here are the Yamaha and Casio entry-level digital pianos that this subreddit will probably recommend as the absolute minimum:

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B009CN8WZ6

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0094KNESM

Stand:

Depends on whether you want to get the official stand or a generic X stand. If you were getting the DXG 660, it appears to come with a stand I think? The official stand for the P-115 will set you back about $100.
Whilst a X style stand probably costs around $25.

Stool:

Cheaper stools can be had for around $25. If you wanted something fancy like you would get with an acoustic, then probably around $60 upwards?

Pedal unit

Note that you will probably want to buy a decent sustain pedal (the one that came with my P105 was terrible). Again you can get a generic one for around $20. The official pedal unit for the P115 will set you back $75.

Start with your budget and then consult your teacher. If its electronic make sure it has a graded hammer action which is heavier in the bass than the treble. I've had a few, but now have settled on the Roland series because of the action. The Roland FP30 is a good beginner piano: https://www.amazon.com/Roland-Digital-Portable-Piano-FP-30-BKC/dp/B01B3FBDC4

​

Used real pianos are hit and miss. I was a piano tech for a while but got out seeing where the market was heading. Don't buy a used piano without testing each key.

There are multiple sources:

• Snell's Repertoire Index
  
  
• RCM Syllabus
  
  
• Jane Magrath's guide to standard repertoire
  
  You can also pick from any of the carefully graded repertoire books - similar to the Kjos series above. Some of those even have accompanying study guides. Here's a nice example.

is this combo any better?
https://www.amazon.ca/Yamaha-P-45-88-Key-Digital-Piano/dp/B00UJ9LNDK?ie=UTF8&tag=marioverehr05-20

Aflred All in One - A reliable go to for the complete beginner to get them using both hands, reading music, understanding chords and keys etc.

Improvising Blues Piano - Great book for intermediate to later beginners looking at exploring contemporary styles.

Exploring Jazz Piano - Similar to the blues one but using jazz which requires a higher level of complexity.

Definitely not the Privia. Look at it brand new.

The YPG-535 is a good deal actually.

The P120 is old and discontinued.

I highly recommend the Hal Leonard Blues Piano book.

https://www.amazon.ca/Yamaha-88-Key-Contemporary-Digital-Piano/dp/B00UJ9LNDK/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1549740059&sr=8-1&keywords=yamaha+p45

I started with a weighted piano. Poeple told me that the feeling of a not weighted piano is not worth it after if you want to continue in playing

The price seems to be similar online as well:
https://www.amazon.ca/gp/offer-listing/B01B3FBDC4/ref=dp_olp_new?ie=UTF8&condition=new

On Reverb it's more or less the same.

Hmm...

Strangely I've never really listened to his compositions, though I've used his piano solo book excessively. Thanks for posting this!

This book has been recommended many times on this sub and it's full of ideas for both hands:

https://www.amazon.com/Improvising-Blues-Piano-Tim-Richards/dp/0946535973

I'm looking to restart playing piano after a 10 year break. I was at an intermediate level when I stopped, though I will no doubt be pretty crap now.

This electronic piano has the full 88 weighted key and is very reasonably priced. It comes with the stand. (Also Costco is really good for returns if one makes a bad mistake).

Is it more or less the same as the Casio PX-150 that costs $500 on Amazon and is recommended in the FAQ?

Thanks.

https://www.amazon.com/Theory-Harmony-ANNIVERSARY-Arnold-Schoenberg/dp/0520266080 Would this be the one?

you can try Hanon or Czerny
https://www.amazon.com/Hanon-Virtuoso-Exercises-Complete-Schirmers/dp/0793525446


https://www.amazon.com/Practical-Method-Beginners-Op-599/dp/0793525675/ref=pd_bxgy_14_img_2?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=0793525675&pd_rd_r=99a4ecb3-d10e-11e8-bdc5-8929d75e6129&pd_rd_w=rcva6&pd_rd_wg=2EWZ1&pf_rd_i=desktop-dp-sims&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_p=6725dbd6-9917-451d-beba-16af7874e407&pf_rd_r=X17PZ9CXNGYQ9JEAG7X0&pf_rd_s=desktop-dp-sims&pf_rd_t=40701&psc=1&refRID=X17PZ9CXNGYQ9JEAG7X0

This

Mikrokosmos: 153 Progressive Piano Pieces : New Definitive Edition https://www.amazon.fr/dp/1423493044/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_IxKUCb045MNEP

Here is the link

Is this more of something that you are looking for?

https://www.amazon.com/Yamaha-L85-Keyboard-Stand/dp/B001MLYWV4/ref=sr_1_17?s=musical-instruments&ie=UTF8&qid=1486002167&sr=1-17&keywords=keyboard+stand

> Roland FP-30

• https://www.thomann.de/gb/roland_ksc_70_bk.htm
  
• https://www.amazon.com/Yamaha-PKBB1-Adjustable-Keyboard-X-Style/dp/B00I362NXU/ref=sr_1_4?keywords=piano+stool&qid=1569511669&s=gateway&sr=8-4

Is this it?

https://www.amazon.com/Casio-Privia-PX-160BK-88-Key-Digital/dp/B0100RBPTC

Any thoughts compared to the Yamaha P45?

Here is an article that I found that compares the two

https://www.digitalpianoreviewguide.com/casio-px-160-vs-yamaha-p-45-which-is-better/

Get a Z-Stand. https://www.amazon.com/Knox-Style-Heavy-Adjustable-Keyboard/dp/B016N052M6

No, it really starts from the beginning. The first part is available in amazon's preview.

http://www.amazon.com/Improve-Your-Sight-Reading-Piano-Elementary/dp/0571533116/

Here are links to the bench and standI use for my digital piano. I've been using them both for about two years and I've had no issues whatsoever.

That is the stand I used with my original keyboard. I don't see any reason it wouldn't work since it's adjustable. Did you go from not-88 keys to 88-keys? The stand can widen but it will sink lower as it does. The stand never tipped over on me - but my keyboard was only 200 dollars. A quick search suggests closer to 700 for the FP30.

For my new keyboard I got the stand linked below. It costs more but it's very sturdy (all metal) and has no threat of tipping over. I like that I can adjust the height without effecting the "tabletop" area. I will say though while this stand is portable it's not as portable as the X style. More pieces to take apart and what not but that is the price of sturdiness.

If you've already ordered it you can try the X out and if it seems wobbly upgrade. The X stands just make me worried looking at them but again, like I said, when I had one it never tipped over. It just seems like it could at any moment.

https://www.amazon.com/Knox-Style-Adjustable-Heavy-Keyboard/dp/B016N052M6/ref=zg_bs_491024011_6?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=73DQFBEY20NV0GN399JJ

I use this stand for my P115. No problems with wobbling but it doesn't look like the L85 if that's what you're after.

If you are susceptible to back pain, I suggest an inexpensive adjustable piano bench and a thick memory foam cushion. It's what I use, and my back is terrible due to a motorcycle accident. But with this, I can sit at the piano for hours w/o pain. (I have a better bench though then this one that I linked to)