(Part 2) Best christian denominations & sects books according to redditors
We found 1,583 Reddit comments discussing the best christian denominations & sects books. We ranked the 488 resulting products by number of redditors who mentioned them. Here are the products ranked 21-40. You can also go back to the previous section.
The brethren used to publicly disagree about things. Now they disagree in a closed room. Because members are not privy to these disagreements, they assume:
I’d love to see more of this healthy public debate among church leaders. The gospel of “having all the answers” is falling short for people in my generation. We ask deep, challenging questions. The exploration of deeper questions is far more fulfilling to me than having rote answers. I wish church leaders were engaging in this discussion rather than implying that they have all the answers and to just “get in line”.
>> “You must work through the Spirit. If that leads you into conflict with the program of the Church, you follow the voice of the Spirit.” (Elder S. Dilworth Young, First Council of the Seventy, 1945; quoted here, p. 17)
>> “We have hitherto acted too much as machines, as to following the Spirit. I will confess to my own shame that I have acted contrary to my own judgment many times. I mean hereafter not to demean myself, to not run contrary to my own judgment. …When President Young says that the Spirit of the Lord says thus and so, I don’t consider that all we should do is to say let it be so.” (Elder Orson Pratt, 1847, quoted here, cover jacket)
Correct. Ironically, Joseph Smith was also a Freemason. You can find many similarities between the rituals of Freemasonry and Mormonism.
For anyone interested in the connection between Masonry and Mormonism please read:
Joseph's Temples: The Dynamic Relationship between Freemasonry and Mormonism.
The Morgan Affair is really frustrating to talk about. There is no record of what happened after Morgan was kidnapped. Some accounts claim that he was drowned, others claim he was paid to leave New York state.
Oooo this is my wheelhouse!
First, I would recommend looking at the Mormon History Association Best Book awards going back to 1966. Quality scholarship, research, and writing are a mainstay with them.
Required reading:
Brigham Young: Pioneer Prophet by John Turner / Brigham Young: American Moses by Leonard Arrington
Considered two of the best books about early Utah and the Brigham Young years. Arrington's book was considered groundbreaking when he wrote it, and Turner's book brings in the valuable perspective of the non-Mormon writing about Young. For many Mormons, Turner's book will be less sympathetic to Young than Arrington's, but Turner also worked closely with the Church Archives (and spoke glowingly about them and that process), so his research had access to some better sources. If you need a primer for Brigham Young, I recommend Arrington's book. For a Brigham Young graduate level course, I recommend Turner.
Early Mormonism and the Magic Worldview by Michael Quinn
To understand much of what happened in early Mormonism, you must understand the role that folk magic played in the lives of Americans in the 1800s. Quinn's research at this time was top notch, and he was a quickly rising star among Mormon historians. Considered one of his best works, and foundational to the understanding things like seer stones, divining rods, visions, and everything else that happened in the early church days.
David O. McKay and the Rise of Modern Mormonism by Greg Prince
Covers late 1940s - 1960s Mormonism, one of the "rising moments" of Mormonism when we went from a Utah-church to a worldwide church. Prince had amazing access to the journals of President McKay's secretary, which led to some candid discussions about things like the publishing of Mormon Doctrine by McConkie, blacks and the priesthood, ecumenical outreach, and politics.
Spencer W. Kimball by Edward Kimball / Lengthen Your Stride: The Presidency of Spencer W. Kimball by Edward Kimball
Ed was Pres. Kimball's son, and the books cover both the apostle years and presidency years of Spencer W. Kimball. If you had to choose one, get Lengthen Your Stride, but make sure it has the CD that comes with the book. This has the unabridged manuscript prior to the Deseret Book edits, which is much more interesting.
By the Hand of Mormon by Terryl Givens (heck...anything by Terryl Givens!)
I'll admit - I'm a Terryl Givens fanboy. By the Hand of Mormon was the one that first got me in to him, mostly because he took the Book of Mormon as a serious work of literature to examine it's merits. It's not as devotional as many traditional LDS books about the Book of Mormon (it was put out by Oxford University Press), but it really gave me a deeper appreciation for the Book of Mormon as contemporary literature. Also check out Viper on the Hearth (Mormons on myth and heresy), People of Paradox (Mormon culture), When Souls had Wings (the pre-existence in Western thought), and so many others.
And just because I'm a big book nerd, here's the list of books that are on my desk right now that I can give you quick reviews if you want:
Read Suprised by Christ: My Journey From Judaism to Orthodox Christianity, by Father James Bernstein, an Orthodox Christian priest, formerly Orthodox Jew.
Filioque is the tip of the iceberg. There are profound and fundamental differences in how Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholics understand the nature of grace, free will, and the nature of man and God. External similarities are vestiges of an ancient shared past. I was raised a devout Roman Catholic and schooled by Benedictine monks. I became Orthodox seven years ago. I can assure you there is an enormous difference, despite what you might have heard or read to the contrary.
Don't try to work things out on your own. Go speak to a priest at the Orthodox Church of St. Gabriel in Nazareth. I have been there. It is a small parish and isn't overwhelmed by tourists.
https://www.amazon.com/Wrestling-Angel-Foundations-Thought-Humanity/dp/0199794928
Terryl Givens in the early part of this book talks about the differences between the Restorationism that came through Joseph Smith and what we see in the other Restorationist groups of that time. I believe it's within the first 2 chapters or so, so wouldn't be too hard to find if you have access to the book.
Welcome! We believe that the Orthodox Church is the original Church founded by Jesus Christ, yes. The best way to get a good idea of what Orthodoxy is about is to visit a local parish near you, but here are some books that I would recommend:
The Orthodox Church
The Orthodox Way
Orthodoxy and Heterodoxy
Know the Faith
On the topic of visiting a local parish - do you live in the US? If so, there is a great online search engine to help you locate nearby Orthodox churches.
> In my understanding polygamy is not officially gone from church doctrine, but rather just not currently practiced. Reading OD1 seems to confirm this as in no place does it strictly repeal it. Is this true? Will polygamy be practiced in the Celestial Kingdom and would it be practiced again should the laws of marriage in the United States change to permit it?
Yes, it is still doctrinal and does still shape sealing policies. I've been taught that it would be practiced again in the future and that it is practiced in the CK. I don't, however, believe that.
> I've heard rumors and read accounts of prominent Mormon leaders (Joseph Smith & Brigham Young in particular) marrying women who already had husbands that were still living. Is this true? What is the reasoning behind this?
Yes, it's true. I don't know the reason. It's one of the most troubling aspects of the historical practice of polygamy.
> In the afterlife, can someone marry my wife? (We are sealed in the temple)
Who really knows what exactly will happen in the afterlife?
> Brigham Young had children with multiple (like... 15ish?) wives? Why were these children not permitted to have a father they didn't share with so many others? Did Utah Territory have a significantly larger female population than male?
Brigham had children with 16 of his 55 wives. In a lot of cases, I don't really see a significant difference between growing up with Brigham Young or Heber C Kimball as your father and growing up without a father—especially when those fathers spent so much time off on missions. Utah didn't have significantly more females than males. The census actually indicates that there were more men than women. AFAIK, it was only a small number of men that were able to get a large number of wives. Elder Widstoe talks about it in his book "Evidences and Reconciliations", and concludes that they practiced polygamy not because there were surplus women but because they believed that God commanded it.
> D&C 132:62-64. Do we still believe that? Why is that still in the scripture, it seems very... ... not what I learn in Sunday School. Man owning women, man sleeping with many women - women being denied the same, if the original wife disagrees God will "destroy" her... this is a bit concerning, please tell me I'm misunderstanding this.
No, I think that you do understand these verses. I don't know whether or not "we" (the Church) believe them, but I don't accept them. They're in the canon, but any lesson that includes section 132 is usually selective about how it covers it and mostly just covers the blessings of eternal (one man and one woman) marriage.
Polygamy is difficult to understand and easy to judge. There was some good that came out of it (including me), but a lot of it was also done poorly.
If you really want to learn more about polygamy, I would recommend reading history books.
Here are some good ones you could look into:
I would also recommend reading what Parley P Pratt wrote about polygamy in his autobiography, as well as this essay that the church recently put out.
You should enjoy this book too then...:
https://www.amazon.ca/Orwellian-World-Jehovahs-Witnesses/dp/0802065457
This book was published in 1984 and I read it in 1985. It was instrumental in my deprogramming. I highly recommend it.
If you can't access it through purchase, your public library likely has a copy or can get it in for you.
I came her to post ths. I've never personally read it, but I hear good things. Here is the amazon link. https://www.amazon.com/This-My-Doctrine-Development-Theology/dp/1589581032/ref=sr_1_24?keywords=lds+doctrine&qid=1573148979&s=books&sr=1-24
Somewhat unrelated, but have you read Charles Harrell's "This is My Doctrine: The Development of Mormon Theology"? It's written by a believing (but nuanced) professor at BYU and reviews the historical developments of mormon doctrine from OT to NT to BOM and early church to modern church. It's pretty fascinating.
Not liking their message doesn't make them wrong. Here's an LDS apologist who shows the same conclusion.
It is covered in this great book, which I highly recommend. The history of Mormon temple worship is totally unknown and fascinating. Like, did you know that until Jos. F. Smith's Presidency, the Logan, Salt Lake, Manti, and St. George temples all had different versions of the endowment? Lots of good stuff in there.
"Joseph Smith, the Prophet and Seer of the Lord, has done more, save Jesus only, for the salvation of men in this world, than any other man that ever lived in it" (D&C 135:3)
Seriously, after I read Mormon Polygamy: A History and No Man Knows My History and thought about how I'd been taught to deify Joseph Smith and knew little to nothing about the actual man, it was then that I understood the allegations of cult-like characteristics that are lodged against the Mormon church.
I also have it linked in the text portion of the Wives of Joseph Smith Infographic
References:
Marriage Details are from wivesofjosephsmith.org
Which has compiled genealogical research from the following sources:
[A] familysearch.org (The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Salt Lake City)
[B] Mormon Polygamy: A History, (Van Wagoner, Signature Books, Salt Lake City, 1989)
[C] Mormon Enigma: Emma Hale Smith, (Newell & Avery, University of Illinois Press, Urbana and Chicago, 1994)
[D] In Sacred Loneliness: The Plural Wives of Joseph Smith, (Compton, Signature Books, Salt Lake City, 1997)
[E] Doctrine and Covenants, (The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Salt Lake City)
Additional Panel References:
[1] "Utah Struggles With a Revival of Polygamy", NY Times, 8/23/1998, James Brooke
[2] Polyandry definition at wikipedia.
[3] Henry Jacobs' mission call; "Zina and Her Men", FAIR LDS Conference, 2006
[4] David Sessions mission call, wivesofjosephsmith.org, Patty Bartlett Sessions Biography
[5] Desdemona Fullmer quote, wivesofjosephsmith.org, D. Fuller Biography
*The cameo silhouettes were created by mormoninfographics for presentation purposes.
Other Resources
Black and White version of this chart for printouts, download here.
Full Rez image from above here.
Welcome to the board! I found ex-JW information around 20 years after I left, but that was some years ago.
>I still always go back to what if, or second guessing myself.
It's likely because you've never deconstructed the [false] beliefs that you were taught.
You've just now found out about the ex-JW groups, if I read your opening post correctly.
There is a mountain of information out on the internet now, about how wrong the WT Society was/is, and more significantly about how CORRUPT the WT Society was/is.
Someone's already recommended JW facts, right? I haven't read the rest of the thread yet.
Edit to add JW facts link: https://jwfacts.com/
And the book written by Ray Franz that first blew off the lid on the inner and extremely corrupt workings of the WT Society: https://www.amazon.com/Crisis-Conscience-struggle-between-religion/dp/0999499211
Also, to anyone else reading this, if I haven't linked the most current version of Crisis of Conscience, please tell me. Thanks!
Oh, and John Cedars' book: https://www.amazon.com/Reluctant-Apostate-Leaving-Jehovahs-Witnesses/dp/0995669104
And his highly informative YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCz1w0ll081JJiYcjb298pOw
Oh, and EXJW Critical Thinkers' channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCpHhWSPtMDTSa8dzapmzo5A
Funny enough there is a book about JWs with almost your exact wording. "I'm Perfect, Youre doomed"
I was raised in a conservative Baptist church. The book "Orthodoxy and Heterodoxy" by Fr. Damick was one of my introductions to the ancient faith. It covers Orthodox understanding of a multitude of other denominations and religions -- although it does not get super in depth. It is a friendly, easy to read tome.
There's a 20 episode companion podcast that is pretty great, too.
Historically, Mormons have not been taken seriously for their theology. One example was the first World Parliament of Religions held during the 1893 Chicago World's Fair. Mormonism was the only religion to be excluded.
Right now we are in the middle of a massive shift where academic circles are starting to take Mormon theology very seriously. Last year, that same World Parliament of Religions held its conference in Salt Lake, with numerous presentation on and serious discussions of Mormon theology. Oxford University Press has published the first of a two volume explication of Mormon theology. Mormon studies chairs and programs are springing up in places like the University of Virginia, Claremont Graduate University, and USC.
There's an excellent episode from the podcast "LDS Perspectives Podcast" that invites prominent LDS scholar and author, Robert Millet, to speak on this exact issue:
> I wouldn’t press young people or older people for that matter to insist we’re Christians just like they are, because I think that wouldn’t be true. It’s not true.
>How we define ourselves. A religious group ought to have the right of self-definition if anything, and [Mormons] haven’t generally been given that right.
It's popular in an evangelical-LDS dialog to have the principle of “let us define for you what you believe.” Mormons do the same thing. We have in our heads, “You believe this. You believe this.”
The LDS Church has a published essay on the issue of "Are Mormon's Christian?"
Finally, as a source and study of Mormon thought in the context of Christian Theology as it evolved over the centuries I would recommend, "Wrestling an Angel: The Foundations of Mormon Thought: Cosmos, God, Humanity", by Terrly Givens.
The usual recommended reading is Ray Franz' Crisis of Conscious. Ray Franz was a member of the Governing Body (JW's Corporate overlords) who basically defected and was "disfellowshipped" (excommunicated). You might have trouble finding it in bookstores though, since the copyright holders are refusing to publish for one reason or another [insert conspiracy theory here]. It can be found in PDF form online though.
Available on Amazon is The Reluctant Apostate by Lloyd Evans. He also runs a very informative and even handed (IMHO) YouTube channel under the name "John Cedars".
Lloyd's book was a very emotional read for me because a lot of the stuff that happened to him happened to me. Not everyone is can escape a cult, and those that do have irreversible damage done to their personality and psyche. Everyday is a struggle for me, but knowing that there are other exJW's make the pain bearable.
Knowing that exJW's and exMormon's have so many similarities give me even greater strength to keep going on. Thank you for existing and I hope that we all find our happiness.
side note: Tapirs, amirte? lol
edit: forgot a link
> Being in Utah, this is a topic that's often alluded to but not often discussed from the Masonic perspective.
Firstly, There's not much to discuss. For generations, we discriminated against Saints, sometimes passive-aggressively, sometimes aggressively. In 1984, this came to an end. No matter what lies we tell ourselves to justify this, the truth remains a) we did it and b) there is never justification for discrimination or lies. Those are the facts. We were wrong. Period. End of discussion. To delve into it beyond owning our guilt to is to delve into speculation and rationalization and fall into attempts to obviate our wrong-doing.
Secondly, within the community of mainstream American Masonry, it is generally frowned upon for Masons or Masonry to comment upon any religion.
Thirdly, I don't think anyone here can truly appreciate what it was to be LDS or non-LDS in a small outpost city, well beyond the safety of the border of the US, in a desert, next to undrinkable water, in the mid-late 19th century. So, even if Masons or Masonry could realistically and justifiably comment on the LDS faith, we can never really understand what it was to scratch out a life in those days.
Now, from the other perspective, I think there may be something to be explored. The current go to resource is Homer's Joseph's Temples. It isn't perfect, but within the discussion of faith, nothing ever is.
DISCLAIMER - Not LDS despite having spent large portions of my life near Batavia, and in Missouri and SLC, UT.
First, look up evangelical counsels (also here).
>Christ in the Gospels laid down certain rules of life and conduct which must be practiced by every one of His followers as the necessary condition for attaining to everlasting life. These precepts of the Gospel practically consist of the Decalogue, or Ten Commandments, of the Old Law, interpreted in the sense of the New. Besides these precepts which must be observed by all under pain of eternal damnation, He also taught certain principles which He expressly stated were not to be considered as binding upon all, or as necessary conditions without which heaven could not be attained, but rather as counsels for those who desired to do more than the minimum and to aim at Christian perfection, so far as that can be obtained here upon earth.
Going back a few verses from the verse you referenced, we read that Jesus said to the crowd:
>Take heed, and beware of all covetousness; for a man’s life does not consist in the abundance of his possessions.
Elsewhere, we read that Jesus tells us:
>Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust consume and where thieves break in and steal, but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust consumes and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
Obviously a Christian's duty is always to those in greater need than he. And if what you own stands between yourself and helping with food, or clothing, or shelter, than what you own is an obstacle...not just to Christian perfection, but to charity--which is the greatest (and most fundamental) of the virtues.
But of all the people we read about who Jesus interacted with, the only person he explicitly told to "sell all you own" was the Rich Young Man, to whom he said, "If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me."
>When the young man heard this he went away sorrowful; for he had great possessions.
Though this man says he had "kept the commandments from his youth", his heart was not where it ought to have been. His heart was where his treasure was--with his possessions.
But that Jesus never intended all of his disciples to sell all of their possessions is proved from the fact that so many of his disciples had homes of their own (including Peter; he had a wife or at least a mother-in-law to look after) and Martha, Mary, and Lazarus. The Gospel of Luke mentions several other women who, "helped Jesus and his disciples out of their own means.
In Acts we read that the disciples "had everything in common, but we read in Paul's First Letter to the Corinthians (11:22) that the Corinthians had homes to eat and drink in. And taking up a collection from the Corinthians for the relief of the poor in other churches, a thing that they themselves had desired to do, Paul writes:
>I do not mean that others should be eased and you burdened, but that as a matter of equality your abundance at the present time should supply their want, so that their abundance may supply your want, that there may be equality. As it is written, “He who gathered much had nothing over, and he who gathered little had no lack.”
Indeed, in presenting a dishonest sum, the profit made from the sale of their possessions, Ananias and Sapphira were told by Peter:
>Why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back part of the proceeds of the land? While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not at your disposal? How is it that you have contrived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.
All this is to show that it was never understood, either during Jesus' earthly ministry, or in the earliest days of the Church, that in order to be a Christian and to inherit eternal life one had to sell all of his possessions.
But Paul, writing to the Philippians, wrote:
>Do nothing from selfishness or conceit, but in humility count others better than yourselves. Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others.
Secondly, if you've never seen an example of Christians selling all they have than you must be ignorant of monasticism. In fact, all consecrated religious have taken vows of poverty, chastity, and obedience.
There are examples really too numerous to list. The whole 2,000 year history of the Church is replete with examples of men and women giving up everything for the aid of the poor, to ease and comfort them in their distress, to sit with them, mourn with them, laugh with them, to share in their struggles, their joys, and their sufferings. To feed them, clothe them, and most importantly to pray with them and to pray for them. To suffer for them...
I was just reading today a story about a Russian Orthodox monk who was approached by a gypsy who asked him for some money. The monk happened to be a priest and the gypsy had heard, incorrectly, that priests always had money. The priest's companion, also a monk and a priest, tried to explain to the old man that they really hadn't any money at all, but the elder priest, taking in the old man and, as the Gospel says, "looking at him, he loved him", took off his new leather shoes which a friend had given him, gave them to the old gypsy, and walked away barefoot.
It's said that St. Francis, if he saw someone in the cold without a cloak, would excuse himself from his company saying, "Excuse me, but I've borrowed my brother coat, and I have to give it back to him," and he would go over and give the poor person his own habit.
St. Teresa of Calcutta took poverty so seriously that she literally suffered through and for the poor she loved so much. The order of religious sisters she founded, the Missionaries of Charity, possess as little as possible to fulfill their mission of caring for the poorest of the poor and dying.
This is the book from which the Russian monk's story comes:
Everyday Saints and Other Stories
I absolutely agree that most Christians could do more. We're most of us lazy, greedy, jealous, petty, proud, when we should be industrious, caring, prudent, and humble. And above all, we all* have room to grow in the direction of charity.
But also bear in mind that the poor also includes our families, our wives, our husbands, and especially our children. And a mother or a father's duty to his or her children is paramount. We truly feed and clothe the poor when we care for our children. And most of us (parents) have it easy. My wife, who grew up in communist Poland, can tell stories of extreme poverty and want--when parents would go without food just so their children could have their fill.
Hello!
Congrats on your journey so far. I am a convert to the church (baptized a little over a year ago) and remember feeling exactly like you did. Being baptized into the church was the biggest (and best) decision of my life, but it was not a decision I wanted to make lightly. I have a few book suggestions and then some semi-unsolicited but hopefully helpful comments.
The God Who Weeps by Terryl and Fiona Givens — I read this one while investigating the church, and it really opened my eyes to how truly beautiful Mormon theology is. So many other religions only left more questions for me, and Mormonism was the first thing that clicked. This book brings a lot of those ideas together. Also I am obsessed with Terryl Givens, everything he writes is fantastic, which brings me to...
Wrestling the Angel also by Givens. This is definitely more of a Mormonism 303 lesson as it is quite academic. But Givens does a fantastic job explaining Mormon doctrine within the larger historical landscape of Christianity. The book is organized topically, so you can kind of skip around and read about what interests you.
Some of my favorite talks that have really spoken to me:
His Grace is Sufficient by Brad Wilcox
God is the Gardener by Hugh B. Brown
On How We Know by Truman G. Madsen
Some other suggestions:
Not sure where you live, but I highly recommend attending any local Institute classes that might be happening (your missionaries will know of them). It's a once a week class where people get together and discuss the Gospel. For me it was great to discuss things with people other than the missionaries and the member who introduced me to the church.
Don't feel like you have to know everything. This was my biggest stumbling block to deciding to be baptized. I felt like because this was such a huge decision (it was), I had to know absolutely everything I could before agreeing (impossible). One of the things I love most about the Gospel is its promise of never-ending, always increasing knowledge to anyone who will seek it. Baptism is not the destination. It is merely the gate into the kingdom of God, the beginning of a journey that has brought so much endless peace, joy, and love into my life. At a certain point I realized I could never know everything, but I knew enough to know that this path would take me to where I needed to be, that this is a life worth living.
This chapter is from a series of memoirs circulated as samizdat during the atheist regime, published in English as Father Arseny, 1893-1973: priest, prisoner, spiritual father (Read online) (Hard copy at Amazon) and Father Arseny: A cloud of Witnesses (Read online) (Hard copy at Amazon).
For those who are interested: here's an interview with Dr. Peter Bouteneff about these books (MP3) and here's a photo of Fr Arseny's grave in Rostov, which is maintained by his surviving spiritual children.
Well, I know of a book.
John Hamer addressed this during one (or more) of his podcasts. It seems like he also had a power point deck that explained some of this... as do his book on the subject.
What it really comes down to is this. The early church was divided into three leadership branches. The twelve apostles were one of those three branches. But the twelve were the group that was responsible for missionary work. Since missionary work was the life-blood of the new church, and since BY had his face all over this group, it was easy for new converts (who knew BY and the twelve) to follow the Brighamite branch West.
Mormon Stories Episode 116: John Hamer Pt. 1 — The LDS Succession Crisis of 1844 and the Beginnings of the RLDS Church
Scattering Of The Saints: Schism Within Mormonism
Search for other John Hamer podcasts and works. This guy is the expert on this subject.
> Is the book of Mormon peer reviewed?
Start with By the Hand of Mormon by Terryl L. Givens, Understanding the Book of Mormon: A Reader's Guide by Grant Hardy and The Book of Mormon: The Earliest Text by Royal Skousen.
These are three independent works, all published by reputable academic presses (Oxford and Yale) by scholars whose scholarly credentials have landed them academic positions at accredited institutions of higher education.
If you want the real deal, start here and learn and see academic scholarship at it's finest painting a majestic picture of this incredible text.
I read '1984' when I was 13 (a really dumb teacher gave it to me. Come on lady, some books you don't put into the hands of kids that young) and it scared me to death. I mean really traumatized. And it took me years to figure out why. In fact it was only a few weeks ago, and finding this subreddit when it all came together: I had grown up in 1984, we all had.
It was a pretty mindblowing revelation. And we're not the first ones to make it.
http://www.amazon.com/The-Orwellian-World-Jehovahs-Witnesses/dp/0802065457/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1382064169&sr=8-1&keywords=orwellian+world+of+jehovah
I find that many of his motivations can be explained by a diagnosis of narcissistic personality disorder as discussed in http://www.amazon.com/Inside-Mind-Joseph-Smith-Psychobiography/dp/1560851252.
Some good suggestions in this thread.
I think I'd start with the Gospel Topic essay "Race and the Priesthood." It's not focused on Joseph Smith, but it's short and a good broad overview of race and the church.
I ditto the suggestion of Paul Reeve's new book Religion of a Different Color. I'd read the chapters on blacks (I think there's only 3 of them, if I remember right?) and look up the sources used in the footnotes.
I'd also grab Richard Bushman's Rough Stone Rolling and look through the index and see what he had to say about the topic. I'd take careful look at the footnotes in the most relevant passages and look up those sources too.
For primary sources, you're going to have to do a bit of digging (but digging is fun!)
Here is a copy of Jane Manning James's autobiography at the Church History Library that she dictated in 1902 (MS 4425). She talks about meeting Joseph Smith on the third page. She was a free black woman who lived with Joseph and worked in his household (and as I recall, she was one of the first pioneers who came to Utah too). First-person reminiscent accounts are wonderful because you get a perspective that isn't available anywhere else, but you have to be cautious too, because it's someone looking backwards and their view is colored by everything that has happened since that time. In this account James is an old woman recollecting things that happened nearly 60 years earlier.
Josephsmithpapers.org is another good spot to start. You'll have to be creative in using the search box, however, because the site won't give you results on terms like "African-American," because that's a modern term. You'll have to think of terminology that would've been contemporary to Joseph Smith's time like "slave" or "Negro." Joseph never gave a long, definitive statement on the topic. What we do have are largely snippets and incidental comments that when grouped together will give you some idea of his thoughts on the matter.
I think modern readers researching this topic need to keep 3 thoughts in mind:
Here are a few items to get you started:
And it'd be worth looking up material on Joseph's political platform when he ran for president too. He had the really interesting idea of compensated emancipation. Basically, the idea was to sell government land in the west and use the proceeds to buy freedom of existing slaves. Theoretically, no more slavery and everyone's happy. I'm not sure I've heard of another candidate suggesting it quite as early as Joseph did.
edit: spelling and formatting
If you have any interest in books (sorry--that's my jam), Mormon Feminism: Essential Writings is a fantastic collection of essays, sermons, some blog posts, and other writings by Mormon women about feminism. It has the benefit of being easily digested in small chunks that stand alone pretty well, so you can skip sections that don't interest you as much or jump to some areas that really speak to you.
I actually think the book Women at Church: Magnifying LDS Women's Local Impact might be another great option for what you're looking for. It's by a very believing Mormon woman who until a few years before writing the book had worked for the church (I think in PR if I remember right) and it basically has two halves: first, explaining to Mormon men (and many women) who don't see any problems with sexism in the church why faithful members feel that there really is (and they're not crazy); and second, laying out suggestions that could be implemented at the local level that wouldn't be against any church policies but which could alleviate some of the problematic aspects of Mormon culture w/r/t sexism.
A few other book options to consider: Mormon Women Have Their Say Essays from the Claremont Oral History Collection; Mormon Women: Portraits and Conversations (covers everyone from a Utah housewife who started a major charity to a woman who fought the Marcos regime as a communist guerrilla in the Philippines!); Educated: A Memoir (a memoir about growing up in a seriously dysfunctional Mormon family but going on to achieve awesome stuff); literally anything written by Chieko Okazaki (or even listen to some of her talks in General Conference to the worldwide church)--she is beloved by literally every Mormon woman I've ever met, liberal or conservative; and Carol Lynn Pearson has written some great stuff about women and Mormonism, like The Ghost of Eternal Polygamy: Haunting the Hearts and Heaven of Mormon Women and Men and (if you're into one-woman plays) Mother Wove the Morning. Many of these have Kindle editions if you don't like hard copies.
Anyway, hope some of that might sound interesting to you. Good luck!
Here is my Top 10 list:
Honorable mentions: Le Livre de Mormon; The Book of Mormon (Moroni's gold plated version); Book of Mormon Stories (children's edition)
Thanks for mentioning us pre-internet pioneers of exmo-ness.
I left in late 1995. Made the mistake of reading Richard S. Van Wagoner's "Mormon Polygamy: A History"
I felt so guilty for reading that book. But, I just couldn't put it down. It was the first time I felt like someone was giving me a real picture of Joseph Smith the man, not the myth. Decided I needed to balance out what I was getting in Van Wagoner's book with something more "church approved." Went to Deseret Book. Asked the girl working if they had anything on polygamy. She said she thought they had one book- they did. It was the book I was already reading.
That was the moment I took the red pill. There was no turning back and the floodgates were opened. I then read:
And then I started checking out copies of Sunstone and Dialogue.
I started checking out some of the articles at Utah Lighthouse Ministries and made one trip to their book store, but I was already becoming an atheist and I didn't really like how they weren't just trying to debunk Mormonism but also trying to sell born again xianity.
By November of 1996 I was already attending a Unitarian Universalist congregation and also pretty much an athiest at that point.
When stuff like MormonThink came along, I was already pretty much post-Mormon. And, when I discovered r/exmormon, I was suddenly surprised at how much I liked watching what was happening here.
I'm always surprised at the announcements people make about being done with this place. But, then I found it when I was already over all the emotional rage at having been deceived. I think I just like watching the train wreck at this point. People's posts here really give me the sense that Mormonism is imploding at a rate faster than this stodgy institution is prepared to deal with- makes me happy.
All three of your professors points are rubbish. If language had evolved as much as he it said it did then Egyptologists wouldn't be able to interpret the countless artifacts from the same period. Is he really saying that the BOA is the only artifact that is different than all the others? Look up the Book of Abraham on Mormon Think. But for an excellent book, and one that answers each of your professors assertions then this one is in my opinion one of the best. Even though it is from the 90's it still holds up today.
https://www.amazon.com/His-Own-Hand-Upon-Papyrus/dp/0962096326/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1539867049&sr=8-1&keywords=By+His+Own+Hand+Upon+Papyrus
You think Crisis blows your mind? Read The Reluctant Apostate by Lloyd Evans. It covers stuff that is in Crisis, but goes even deeper down the rabbit hole, bringing the reader pretty close to up to date on the Borg.
https://smile.amazon.com/Reluctant-Apostate-Leaving-Jehovahs-Witnesses/dp/0995669104/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1537552743&sr=8-1&keywords=the+reluctant+apostate
Go ask around on r/ExMormon, r/ExJW, read I'm Perfect, You're Doomed by Kyria Abrahams. Celibacy for religious purposes is an anachronism in the age of condoms and birth control. It doesn't help anyone anymore.
Take a look at this book: https://www.amazon.com/Inside-Mind-Joseph-Smith-Psychobiography/dp/1560851252/ref=mp_s_a_1_3?keywords=joseph+smith+psychology&qid=1567980764&s=gateway&sr=8-3
Go read "This is My Doctrine: The Development of Mormon Theology" by Charles R. Harrell. It is the best topical summary of the evolution of LDS doctrine available, written by a believing but uncorrelated BYU Engineering professor.
If you're interested in the changing claims about God that developed in Joseph's lifetime, I wrote a few blog posts documenting my findings and resources:
Darwinian Deity: The Evolution of the Mormon Concept of God – Part I
Darwinian Deity: The Evolution of the Mormon Concept of God – Part II
Darwinian Deity: The Evolution of the Mormon Concept of God – Part III
Letters to a Young Mormon by Adam Miller. This books is a series of letters on gospel topics. It really makes you think about topics that we sometimes gloss over, and I feel like it's helped me be a more deliberate disciple.
First Principles and Ordinances by Samuel Brown. This book is next on my reading list, but everything I've read from this guy has been excellent. I recently saw someone recommend this book for prospective missionaries.
Wrestling the Angel by Terryl Givens. This book is a great history and explanation of Mormon doctrine and compares our beliefs to historical and modern mainstream Christian beliefs. I would highly recommend this one for future missionaries
The doctrine is not straightforward. There are several explanations, including Adam-God to which you referred and Jehovah-Jesus. The Book of Mormon teaches both modalism and trinitarianism. Mormons could also be thought of as somewhat Arianist. My favorite vision is of heaven as sci-fi Mormon Valhalla, derivable from the King Follett Discourse. And don't forget to include Heavenly Mother, or Mothers if you're double-true blue.
If you want a quick answer to what Mormons believe God to be, you won't find one. But if you're interested in meditating on this more fully, check out the section on The Divine in Terryl Givens' recent book.
Good! It's impossible NOT to see parallels between the JW world and that Orwellian dystopia (there's a book you might like: The Orwellian World of Jehovah's Witnesses
I too learned to be very good at doublethink. Took me almost two years after I was free, mentally, to be free physically - because I still lived at home. My online exJW friends were instrumental in helping me get through that time. Be patient, smile and nod, and lean on us. :-)
My initial thoughts:
See if any of those pique your interest. I found them all to be fair, with little bias. Happy studying!
Sources for some of this (disclaimer: some of this research is my own, but I believe it to be sound):
Hi! There is something interesting about this meme, from a historical point of view. Apparently, the initiates donned the robes (etc) to receive the first token of the Aaronic priesthood.
I quote this text from Salt Lake temple president George F. Richards who was appointed to revise the ordinances:
[3 June 1922:] I took 7:20 [a.m.] car for my work at the temple. This day [Saturday] I went before the [First] Presidency and presented to them an important change in the endowment ceremony by which the robes should be placed on the left shoulder first and then changed to the right shoulder once only before entering the Terrestrial room; also that Aaronic and Melchizedek be used instead of lower order of the Melchizedek and
higher order of the Aaronic. I am to come back with a definite recommend of the Presidency of the Temple. This is my own suggestion. Other members not accessible today.
(end quote)
And here is the text of the official announcement which reveals the old an new order:
"June 7, 1922--REGARDING THE ROBES OF THE HOLY PRIESTHOOD IN THE ENDOWMENTS CEREMONY:
Taken from the minutes of a meeting at the office
of the First Presidency. Presidents Grant, Penrose and Ivins being present. I represented having discussed with associates in the temple the advisability of instituting a change in the procedure of
placing the Endowment Robes on the individuals receiving endowments the present method being to first place the robe on the right shoulder, subsequently change it to the left shoulder, and
later again back to the right shoulder. The proposed change would be to place the robe first on the Left shoulder, and retain it there until after the Second Token of the Aaronic Priesthood has
been given, then to change it to the Right shoulder, in conformity with the giving of the Tokens of the Melchizedek Priesthood, thus obviating one of the changes heretofore made, and more
effectively indicating transition from the lower to the higher orders of the Priesthood.
"After considering carefully the proposed change, the [First] Presidency decided unanimously that from that time on the Robe should first be placed on the Left shoulder, and be
changed to the Right shoulder at the time the Endowment candidates are going to enter the Terrestrial World room. The necessary changes in the text, to conform with this decision, are to
be made in the new books of rules, etc. that are to be issued to the Temple Presidents.
(Announced to Temple workers in meeting held 14 Aug. 1922.)"
(end quote)
So if this meme is to depict a pre-Aug-1922 ceremony, the placement of the robes is correct.
At least from 1984 on, (the year I received my endowment) the first token of the Aaronic is given without the robes, only with the apron on.
References: text taken from Buerger's book
https://www.amazon.com/Mysteries-Godliness-History-Mormon-Worship/dp/1560851767/ref=sr_1_sc_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1483443442&sr=8-1-spell&keywords=the+mysteries+of+godlinnes
Simon Southerton, author of Losing a Lost Tribe, geneticist, and go to guy for all DNA questions. He blew the lid off The BoM 13 years ago with this book.
http://simonsoutherton.blogspot.com
https://www.amazon.com/Losing-Lost-Tribe-Native-Americans/dp/1560851813
http://www.amazon.com/Losing-Lost-Tribe-Native-Americans/dp/1560851813
Sir you need to read this: http://www.amazon.com/This-Is-My-Doctrine-Development/dp/1589581032
I wish a great deal more members and critics would read it. It is phenomenal and caused a drastic readjustment for me.
You might be interested in Michael W. Homer's "Joseph's Temples" https://www.amazon.com/Joseph%C2%92s-Temples-Relationship-Freemasonry-Mormonism/dp/1607813440
It's an interesting story & dynamic. Being in Utah I know a lot of LDS folks (and a few LDS/former LDS Brothers) but have never encountered such a frank discussion as in that text.
Surprised by Christ “Surprised by Christ.” Is a book by Fr. James Bernstein, a convert from Judaism and now an Orthodox Priest! I highly recommend!
Ignorant people exist everywhere.
Now, the stuff about the antichrist is complicated because the notion of a man who masquerades as the Messiah and fools the world IS part of Christianity. Obviously, fooling the world would include things like World Peace, and if he wants to win Israel over, he may build the Temple or something. But this is really all conjecture. All we know is that if Christ is the Godman (Theoanthropos) then the AntiChrist will be the perfect inverse of this, the Mangod (Anthropotheos). That's what we should all be on the look out for (keep your eye on the Transhumanists). Maybe he'll be Jewish, maybe he'll be Italian, who knows? I doubt it'll be so blatantly obvious.
Also, you may like this book, written by an Orthodox Jew who converted to Eastern Orthodoxy https://www.amazon.com/Surprised-Christ-Journey-Orthodox-Christianity/dp/1888212950
I mean, what's your bar for acceptable sources? There's a long history of scholarship surrounding early Mormon history. You shouldn't feel bad that you don't know everything there is to know--few people do. But you likewise shouldn't blame others for your ignorance. You also shouldn't project your experience on others (and like /u/everything_is_free said, we all should be better about that).
But some stuff to get started:
The Maxwell Institute
FairMormon
Our own /u/brianhales
Richard Bushman
I recommend Maxine Hanks' Women and Authority: Re-Emerging Mormon Feminism (1992) for some perspective on feminism within Mormonism. Mormonism is fundamentally patriarchal, which has made feminism and feminist theology necessary. Sister Hanks was excommunicated for the anthology as part of the infamous September Six purge, as well as some of the book's contributors, including D. Michael Quinn.
There's also a new book, Mormon Feminism: Essential Readings (2015), edited by a handful of prominent Ordain Women players. I have not yet read it, so I can't vouch for it, but it could also be informative.
I have appreciated Feminist Mormon Housewives and the community they provide for Mormon women-- active, transitioning, and ex.
When I was NOM transitioning to exmo, my wife was already mentally out, the only way I felt comfortable ever baptizing our then 1-year-old daughter, would be if my wife could participate on some level, either as a witness or participate in the confirmation circle. I got to this after reading about the historical practice of women's blessings, see "A gift given, a gift taken" and I'd get this book to start reading to prepare your daughter with some mormon feminism, Modern Feminism: Essential Writings
So maybe a copy of Uncle Tom's Cabin, then . . .
Only you will know the best approach. The church has tons of weak spots. It's just that people place value on different things.
To discredit the Book of Mormon itself as a historical document, start with a couple of simple websites. I really find the Wikipedia page on BOM anachronisms to be a great starting point. It's an avalanche of evidence in short form. If this is her "one thing" have her go down the list and discuss each item on the page. How does she explain the elephants? The metal currency? The animals that shouldn't be there and the animals that should have been in a book set in the ancient US? If the Book of Mormon can be shown to be a work of fiction, the rest unravels.
To discredit Joseph Smith as a person who produced divine scripture, read By His Own Hand Upon Papyrus. It's not too long, and because we actually have the original text used to produce the Book of Abraham, it's very easy to prove that what Smith produced was a bunch of made up bullshit.
To draw attention to the fact that Joseph Smith was a serial rapist who abused his spiritual authority to have sex with women who trusted him, all the while going behind his wife's back, send her to Wives of Joseph Smith. In Sacred Loneliness is excellent and extremely thorough, but the book is also the size of a cinder block and can be off-putting to someone only willing to read one thing.
To point out historical spin on polygamy, you could discuss the following:
The polygamy issue is a rabbit hole of ugliness that nobody can unsee. It's possible your wife is genuinely unbothered by it and wouldn't care how many women and girls Smith raped, but I want to believe if she has any conscience at all that her stomach will turn once she sees what is behind the curtain.
I recommend for the op to read:
The Reluctant Apostate: Leaving Jehovah's Witnesses Comes at a Price https://www.amazon.com/dp/0995669104/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_Yvz4ybHCEXS26
It's a long book but it organizes a lot of Watchtower material/fallacies/scandals. It's written with non-JWs in mind.
https://www.amazon.com/Im-Perfect-Youre-Doomed-Upbringing/dp/1416556869
Google brings up "Faith on the March" by A H MacMillian, "The Truth that leads to Eternal Life", and "I'm Perfect, You're Doomed" which is satire.
That's interesting that you've heard that because the way I understood the 144 000 was that they were selected arbitrarily by God. If you were in a Kingdom Hall and there was someone who was particularly kind and saintly, everyone in the congregation would start to think that they were one of the elect. As one of the elect, they get respect, special privilege, and they are the only ones who can take communion (everyone else just passes the bread and grape juice because they aren't elect and, therefore, cannot partake in the sacrament).
Granted, I don't know what your source is, but I got this from a memoir by an ex-JW called I'm Perfect, You're Doomed. I don't know how libelous it may or may not be as the author is very, very bitter about her upbringing but the insider knowledge of a tradition is better than any armchair sources.
A very in-depth and fully documented look at the early church can be found in D. Micheal Quinn's Origins and Extensions of Power books.
If you want to learn more, this book does a good job examining the evolution of temple worship.
Hmm... Ok I'll list a couple (and some are copied, some are mine):
punishments with all the signs, including cutting your neck and disemboweling yourself. http://www.i4m.com/think/temples/temple_ceremony.htm
Ok I’m going to stop, but I could go on and on and on. lol
Another interesting story is Dr. Thomas Murphy (also anthropologist not geneticist). Murphy was one of the first scientists to work on Book of Mormon DNA. His doctoral thesis on the subject (Lamanite Genesis, Genealogy, and Genetics, 2002) concluded that the DNA evidence contradicted the Book of Mormon claims. For that he was summoned to a disciplinary council to be excommunicated. That put Murphy in a double bind because he could not recant his doctoral thesis or fake the data. Murphy's story was picked up by the media. Whether it was public pressure or the realization that he was forcing Murphy into a double bind, his stake president postponed the DC hours before it was supposed to start and cancelled it about two months later.
I don't think Murphy has ever done a podcast, but it's interesting to know about since Murphy's work was fodder for Southerton who expanded it. Southerton's book is here https://www.amazon.com/Losing-Lost-Tribe-Native-Americans/dp/1560851813
edit fixed a link
That's a different book. He's talking about This Is My Doctrine: The Development of Mormon Theology by Charles Harrell, a BYU professor.
http://www.amazon.com/This-My-Doctrine-Development-Theology/dp/1589581032/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1369261705&sr=1-1&keywords=this+is+my+doctrine+the+development+of+mormon+theology
Joseph’s Temples: The Dynamic Relationship between Freemasonry and Mormonism http://www.amazon.com/dp/1607813440/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_nS_ttl
I haven't read this yet. I plan on buying it and reading it soon.
I read the following book and found it to be incredibly detailed in addressing the topic:
Joseph’s Temples: The Dynamic Relationship between Freemasonry and Mormonism
TLDR (if you don't want to read ~500 pages...) Masonry has no real connection to antiquity, just myths based on references to biblical persons/events. Joseph stole all the core ideas from the masons, and they were not at all happy about it.
Divine Liturgy in Orthodoxy is going to closer resemble Jewish temple services (I don't know much about Judaism myself).
Here's an Orthodox book: https://www.amazon.com/Surprised-Christ-Journey-Orthodox-Christianity/dp/1888212950/
Here's a Catholic book: https://www.amazon.com/Crucified-Rabbi-Judaism-Catholic-Christianity/dp/057803834X/
Hope this random comment helps!
I don't. The author has a whole book on the subject and the front cover has another schism chart with the names of the leaders instead of the sects.
http://www.amazon.com/Scattering-Of-The-Saints-Mormonism/dp/1934901024
edit: Here is the graphic from the book http://www.mvgcontact.org/graphics/MovementChart.pdf
Orthodoxy and Heterodoxy explains Orthodox Christianity but also explains the differences between us and other churches through the lens of the Orthodox Church, explaining why we don't agree with them. It's a pretty good book.
Also if anyone tries to claim it is just an Anti-Mormon lie, go to Deseret Bookstore, owned by the Mormon church, open up Rough Stone Rolling.
It is documented there. An official documentation of the event from first hand accounts.
You can also purchase it online from the Deseret Book
https://deseretbook.com/p/joseph-smith-rough-stone-rolling-richard-l-bushman-5351?variant_id=104298-paperback
Or get an ebook from Amazon.
https://www.amazon.com/Joseph-Smith-Rough-Stone-Rolling-ebook/dp/B000XUBEZM
Regarding your point number 5:
https://www.amazon.ca/Orwellian-World-Jehovahs-Witnesses/dp/0802065457
Besides Combating Cult Mind Control, Crisis of Conscious and The God Delusion (The trinity of exjw books? :D) a great book is "Why Evolution is True" by Jerry Coyne, it cleared up some misconceptions I had on evolution even after researching it. Also enjoyed the explanation on why there are some gaps in the fossil record as well, but overall it really solidified the fact that evolution has enormous irrefutable evidence backing its explanation.
"A Universe From Nothing" by Lawrence Krauss, explains the big bang and the physics of empty space. There is always something rather than nothing and basically the universe had to exist with the properties it does or otherwise it couldn't. (lol I promise im not celebrating 4/20) He did not do a very good job of explaining some of the physics principles in layman's terms so reading another introductory physics book would probably be best. I read "The Elegant Universe" by Brian Greene before and was still scratching my head a few times... but that might just be my own ineptitude.
"Beyond Religion - Ethics For A Whole World" by the Dali Lama. It was refreshing to read a book by a spiritual leader that actually gets the bigger picture. He talks about where ethics come from, why all people despite their background can be morally upright and that one does not need to be religiously inclined to lead an ethical, happy life that contributes to society. Mainly its a call for understanding and tolerance of others. I plan on sharing with my witness parents and friends to help them escape their narrow minded point of view that atheists and other non witnesses are heathens while respecting their religion... as much as I disagree.
I keep hearing A History of God brought up and Jesus Misquoted so they are next on my book list. I had started on the demon haunted world but have not finished it yet. Also, has anyone read this book yet...
http://www.amazon.com/The-Orwellian-World-Jehovahs-Witnesses/dp/0802065457
Stumbled upon it the other day and thought it looked a little wacky but might be an entertaining read comparing 1984 to witnesses.
P.S. - Here is a shameless plug for the /r/atheism reading list...
http://www.reddit.com/help/faqs/atheism#RecommendedReading
Maybe we should start our own on the side bar. :)
Mountain of Silence - by Kyriakos Markides
https://www.amazon.com/Mountain-Silence-Search-Orthodox-Spirituality/dp/0385500920
​
Fr Arseny: Priest, Prisoner, Spiritual Father
https://www.amazon.com/Father-Arseny-1893-1973-Narratives-Concerning/dp/0881411809
​
The Orthodox Church - Timothy Ware
https://www.amazon.com/Orthodox-Church-New-Timothy-Ware/dp/0140146563
​
Byzantine Thought and Art - Constantine Cavarnos
https://www.amazon.com/Byzantine-Thought-Art-Constantine-Cavarnos/dp/0914744224
The Oxford Short Introductions Series has a great volume on Mormonism that covers the faith in a very even-handed and neutral manner. If you're pressed for time, this would probably be the best thing to read. The Dummies and Idiot's Guide are actually not that bad in their presentation of the faith; they're both by what would be termed "liberal Mormons" and do a pretty good job of being realistic in their presentation (though both still being very positive, of course, but they're not conversion texts).
To understand the different faiths in the Latter Day Saint movement you need to understand the history of the faith as so much of the faith claims are rooted in historical events. Books like Rough Stone Rolling and No Man Knows My History give a good overview of Joseph Smith's life. The upcoming Brigham Young biography by John Turner seems like it will also be a good source for information on Young's tenure as president of the Church as it will discuss some of the darker/stranger issues like blood atonement and Adam-God. If you want to go in depth on the history of the Temple ritual, I'd recommend Buerger's The Mysteries of Godliness.
The last information I would give is that most (but not all) books published by Christian publishers should probably be avoided. Nowadays most of them are factual in their content, but their presentation is not meant to provide an understanding of the LDS Church but rather is meant to provide a multiplicity of reasons not to associate with the faith. A few exceptions I'd say are most books by Sandra and Gerald Tanner, and By His Own Hand Upon Papyrus which is an amazing overview of Joseph's "Book of Abraham" and the history and implications of the papyri Smith used in producing it which were rediscovered in 1967 to the subtle consternation of the CHurch ever since.
I really enjoyed this one about the book of Abraham: By His Own Hand Upon Papyrus: A New Look at the Joseph Smith Papyri https://www.amazon.com/dp/0962096326/ref=cm_sw_r_other_awd_Fb.MwbRT8GJNH
It's on the book "by his own hand upon papyrus"
It's the first chapter. It mentions that people were starting to doubt Joseph Smith so they had to do something to revive the faith. When the mummy salesman came to town it was just what they needed: Show that Joseph could translate ancient documents.
I never managed to get into the second book, but I think you've inspired me to do so. Read CoC, am in the middle of The Reluctant Apostate at the moment (can be found here: http://amzn.to/2rd25ye ) ... but I will give 'In Search of Christian Freedom' a read very soon.
Thank you.
Yes, I actually just recently came across this because it's always been a question of mine how they determined who sat where in the temple. I noticed that it's not a left/right thing, and I never could figure it out. Then I read that Brigham Young instituted the policy of separating the genders in sacrament meeting where the women sat on the NORTH side of the chapel. I thought back to it, and for the few temples I can place a compass direction on, the women in the temple sit on the north.
I'd be interested in hearing if anyone else can confirm the north/south orientation in the temple they're familiar with.
But yes, Brigham Young did it because....well... Brigham Young.
Edited to add source:
2 Jan, 1859 - Brigham Young begins custom of having all Mormon congregations sit with women on north side of center aisle, men on south side, and children on front benches. This seating arrangement lasts for decades, remains in temples to this day.
http://www.amazon.com/Inside-Mind-Joseph-Smith-Psychobiography/dp/1560851252
Check out this book. The author is Robert D. Anderson, M.D., (a nevermo) is a semi-retired psychiatrist in private practice whose studies at the Psychoanalytic Institute stimulated his interest in applied psychoanalysis. This is a great book.
https://www.amazon.com/Inside-Mind-Joseph-Smith-Psychobiography/dp/1560851252
Depends on the "TBM" you ask I suppose. Its not a book that is trying to expose the church or anything. Its pretty much just an academic work. Its not just about the Second Anointing. Its about the history of temple worship in the church generally. He's careful to use sources that are/were public at the times they were released and he doesn't even give any of the ceremonies away as they stand today. Its pretty evenhanded but revealing. Much of it goes into the Masonic roots of the temple for example. That alone could make it seem "anti Mormon" by many members. If the truth is anti Mormon, then this book is anti Mormon...
Here's a link: Mysteries of Godliness
The absolute most important book your need to compare it with is the first volume of The Persistence of Polygamy: Joseph Smith and the Origins of Mormon Polygamy. If you don't include that book, you are wasting your time. Not only does it include crucial in-depth coverage and analysis of Joseph's polygamy that can't be found elsewhere, but more importantly it backs it up with statistical analysis of hard census data and scientific analysis of genetics so hay what it provides is so much more objective than an analysis of subjective histories.
You'd also be completely remiss if you didn't read Joseph Smith: The Making of a Prophet by Dan Vogel, which is available for free at that link.
In order to cover the part about masonry that Bushman irresponsibly glosses over, you need to read Buerger's The Mysteries of Godliness: A History of Mormon Temple Worship.
I've read about this on the sub before here.
But I have yet to see the source. The claim is from this book, which seems fairly well-sourced.
Please tell me one doctrine that hasn't changed during the history of the mormon church?
​
Here is your resource on all the changes.
​
https://www.amazon.com/This-My-Doctrine-Development-Theology/dp/1589581032
Can you afford to purchase the kindle version of this book? Joseph's Temples: The Dynamic Relationship between Freemasonry and Mormonism...$15.99 USD on Amazon. I own a physical copy of this book and it was very informative.
If you're looking for something more scholarly, the book Joseph's Temples: The Dynamic Relationship between Freemasonry and Mormonism might be good. I haven't read it yet, but it has been on my list for a while. There's an in-depth review of the book here.
Abc interesting video by a Jewish convert it Orthodoxy. His book, surprised by Christ, is excellent as well.
[Jewish Roots Of Orthodox Worship] (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7nd8vC9qdPQ).
[Surprised by Christ] (https://www.amazon.com/Surprised-Christ-Journey-Orthodox-Christianity/dp/1888212950).
There is an excellent book titled Surprised by Christ. It is the true story of a Jewish man discovering Christianity, written by the man himself!
As he comes to Orthodox Christianity after Protestantism, there is definitely a bias in the Eastern Orthodox Christian direction, but not terribly so, I think.
If you want the full story, check out Scattering Of The Saints: Schism Within Mormonism
You can see the dozens of schisms just by zooming in on the front cover.
The podcast and book by Eastern Orthodox priest, Fr Andrew Stephen Damick's sheds a great deal of light on all heterodox beliefs (he takes the standpoint of the Eastern Orthodox Church). It's quite informational and engaging :)
http://www.ancientfaith.com/podcasts/orthodoxyheterodoxy
http://www.amazon.com/Orthodoxy-Heterodoxy-Exploring-Systems-Christian/dp/1936270137?ie=UTF8&keywords=orthodoxy%20and%20heterodoxy&qid=1462615776&ref_=sr_1_1&sr=8-1
Orthodoxy and Heterodoxy is one of the best taxonomies of Christianity that I've found. It goes through each major movement in Christianity, gives a short backstory for the cause of the movement, a description of each of the denominations that make up that movement, and does a compare/contrast with Eastern Orthodoxy. It's not exactly neutral, coming from the perspective of a 21st century American Eastern Orthodox priest, but I think it's remarkably good for getting one's bearings amidst all the different Christian groups out there. There's also a podcast version, upon which the book is an expansion.
> I've been reading No Man Knows My History,
It's not exactly an unbiased history. I'd recommend Alex Beam's American Crucifixion for a more evenhanded biography of Joseph Smith, or perhaps Rough Stone Rolling by Richard Lynn Bushman, though it's also more about the birth and growth of the Mormon Church (though Bushman does spend some time talking about Smith).
Beam is a non-Mormon journalist, Bushman is a practicing Mormon and Gouverneur Morris Professor of History emeritus at Columbia University
If you haven't studied "anti-Mormon" sources, you can't claim you aren't any of those things, because that's part of it. The constant reminders to only get your information from the church. That is one of the biggest elements of indoctrination, brainwashing, and sheltering.
They're preventing you from doing thorough research and frankly, it's not our job to digest all of for you. The problems with the church are so numerous there is no way anyone is going to be able to lay them all out for you in a comment on a reddit post. Asking us to tell you why we left is not evidence you weren't indoctrinated if you refuse to go do the study yourself.
Most active members have no idea just how much information there is and that no, it is not spun. Here's a little bit of the history on why and how the real history the church is now trying to manage finally came out. There is a couple in Provo who have a Christian ministry basically dedicated to taking down the Mormon church. Around 1990 they published a pamphlet that talked about some serious stuff the vast majority of members didn't know, like Joseph's Smith polygamy. Normally the church wouldn't respond to these things, but they felt the claims were worrisome enough (getting questions from members) they needed to publish a response, so they invited two BYU historians into the archives (you know the ones in the mountain) to study ALL of the historical documents they had and write a refutation debunking the Tanner's claims.
For about two years Michael Quinn and Dan Vogel studied every document and took photos of each one, with the church's blessing. Problem was, not only did what they find back up the Tanner's claims, but the actual history was much worse (things like Polyandry). They did write a rebuttal, but it was rejected by the Q15 and they were told not to publish anything at all, ever. More than twenty years later the essays on lds.org the church finally published to at least be a little bit honest are right out of Vogel and Quinns essays. By being a little bit I mean, if you not only read the essays, but then follow the footnotes, well. It's not good. The Saints book is the same way. It doesn't out and out lie, but talk about out of context and leaving out very important information if it's too faith challenging. It's still not fully honest. Not even remotely. Shouldn't the church have to be as honest as they expect the membership?
Being historians, not publishing and keeping it all a secret didn't sit well with them and they published anyway. In fact, Dan Vogel made all those facsimiles of all those documents, thousands and thousands of them, available to any other scholar wanting to pour through them and publish their own findings. For their trouble they were excommunicated as part of the September Six (google it).
Many (maybe most on church history) of the anti-Mormon books out there directly source these documents and you can even get them yourself. Dan Vogel published all of them in several volumes called, "Early Mormon Documents." The goal was to publish all the source material he and Quinn had collected without editorial comment. I'm not sure how much more objective it can get or how any Mormon can claim the stacks of books that came out of these are not sourced or dishonest.
If you want a summary list of the major issues, and it's a long one, you should download the free pdf version of the CES letter on cesletter.org. Then read the rebuttals over on Fair Mormon. Then read the rebuttals to the rebuttals.
When I left, a nice summary didn't exist, so I had to read books and boy did I read a lot of them. I happened to start with Mormon Enigma: Emma Hale Smith, which is well sourced out of the RLDS archives, but I also read Grant Palmer's, An Insider's View of Mormon Origins. Incidentally, he was another BYU professor excommunicated for publishing the irrefutable truth. Keep in mind, these people were active members. They were not trying to tear down the church. They simply felt it was morally wrong to continue to have blatant and significant inaccuracies in teaching manuals, in conference talks, in Seminary, in well......everything.
My reading list (those I can remember at least):
Mormon Enigma: Emma Hale Smith
An Insider's View of Mormon Origins
Joseph Smith: The Making of a Prophet (A Biography)
No Man Knows My History: The Life of Joseph Smith
The Mormon Hierarchy: Origins of Power
Mormon America: The Power and the Promise
If you still think everything other than what is directly published by the church are anti-Mormon lies or tricks, well I can help you there at too. How deep have you gotten into Journal of Discourses? It's almost worse than anything written by an anti-Mormon. So much worse than a couple of troublesome quotes. I also re-read the D&C while reading Teaching of the Prophet Joseph Smith in tandem. It was a lot harder to swallow that way to say the least and both of those are obviously considered faithful study.
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If you want to claim you aren't brainwashed or indoctrinated you have to do the work. Saying "I posted on Reddit and no one convinced me," or the other favorite, "people much smarter than me have already studied all that and say its fine," are not valid arguments. They're lazy cop outs.
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Good luck on your search for truth. I encourage you to study it out from ALL sources, including faithful sources you haven't yet studied.
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edited to add: Forgot one of the most important. In Sacred Loneliness: The Plural Wives of Joseph Smith
edited edited to add: If you want something a little more biased for the church you can even just read Joseph Smith: Rough Stone Rolling. If you're going to read the D&C and Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith at the same time as I did, I recommend at least reading this one first. It's going to be much clearer if you've read at least one of the biographies and Rough Stone Rolling was published by Deseret Book.
The Orthodox church features heavily in the Brothers Karmazov and there are a lot of great books about it.
The Orthodox Way by Kallistos Ware is an overview of their practices and beliefs and how they affect life as a whole. It references the Brothers K a lot, especially the life of Father Zosima. The themes of Dostoyevsky are fundamentally rooted in Orthodox tradition. This book takes those same ideas and goes much deeper into them. The same author has another book on the history of the church that is pretty good too.
Everyday Saints was a recent nonfiction bestseller in Russia about monastics living under soviet occupation. It's beautifully written. It reminded me a lot of Brothers K. It's a sprawl of Russians balancing drama with weighty religious themes.
But neither of those are in the literary cannon. For classic literature with similar themes I'd highly reccomend Moby Dick. The book is so famous that people forget how good it is. It's one of the greatest works of American Literature ever. The prose is a massive step up from translations of Dostoevsky while covering the same themes as Brothers K just as deeply.
Also, if you like Brothers K you'll like all his other works. Notes from Underground is my favorite and very short. But they're all good. Tolstoy is great too and has much better prose if you're down to read another giant book. War and Peace and Anna Karenina are both solid members of the cannon.
Shakespeare's plays might be too short to count but all his works cover the same themes too.
I have heard a number of atheist/agnostic types who have come to love the book "Everyday Saints." I don't know why this is (although it's a marvelous book).
https://www.amazon.com/Everyday-Saints-Stories-Archimandrite-Shevkunov-ebook/dp/B00AZM6MM8
Although again, as others have noted there sometimes is no "magic book."
Another book that someone else already recommended is "Wounded by Love." Funny enough, in either that book or another book by him called "Christ is Fullness of Life," St. Porphyrios seems to speak against trying to coerce/force children (I am assuming older ones) even into coming to church and instead advises parents to simply pray for their children and respect their free will. I am in no way evaluating this position, it's just an interesting perspective.
http://www.amazon.com/Mormon-Feminism-Essential-Joanna-Brooks/dp/0190248033/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1449848981&sr=1-1&keywords=mormon+feminism
Honest to gosh, I did this innocently ... because I've noticed that my daughter-in-law is interested in the subject.
"Mormon Feminism" compiled by Joanna Brooks, Rachel Hunt Steenblik, and Hannah Wheelwright. It has all of the essential feminist essays that show the history of an empowered relief society, women's blessings, and the political influences that diminished women's roles in the church. (see here: https://www.amazon.com/Mormon-Feminism-Essential-Joanna-Brooks/dp/0190248033)
For instance, it has these essays that were very important in my faith transition:
Also, I'd consider "The Ghost of Eternal Polygamy" by Carol Lyn Pearson https://www.amazon.com/Ghost-Eternal-Polygamy-Haunting-Hearts/dp/0997458208
This bookby Royal Skousen put the biggest crack in my shelf. It costs money, but is an easy way to show people that a Mormon "scholar" knows all about this shit.
All great suggestions here! I just wanted to add that Royal Skousen's Earliest Text edition of the Book of Mormon is also a great option. No pictures or footnotes, but it flows really well and there is lots of space in the margins. The verses are broken down into what he calls "sense lines" and it makes it super easy to follow. I felt like I was breezing through it.
https://www.amazon.com/Book-Mormon-Earliest-Text/dp/0300142188
The best examination of this is Royal Skousen’s “The Book of Mormon: the Earliest Text.”
https://www.amazon.com/Book-Mormon-Earliest-Text/dp/0300142188
That depends on what you think of academic works. I think it's super fascinating! But I'm into that kind of thing. Check out the reviews here! I use it as more of a reference than a straight through read. Most of the text is the Book of Mormon itself as well as textual comparisons of the extant original manuscript, printers manuscripts, and 1981 edition of the Book of Mormon.
http://www.amazon.com/The-Orwellian-World-Jehovahs-Witnesses/dp/0802065457
I guess I should point out that this exists. I haven't read it so I cannot recommend it, but I really want to.
This is the book. I recommend this to all of my fellow brothers/sisters who are in extreme prolonged suffering.
https://www.amazon.com/Father-Arseny-1893-1973-Narratives-Concerning/dp/0881411809
Within the Eastern Orthodox faith, we believe that miracles are an everyday occurrence. Read, for example, Father Arseny: Priest, Prisoner, Spiritual Father or Everyday Saints
Those interested in this topic would do well to read the book Everyday Saints. And Father Arseny. The revolution was utter destruction, but did not come out of the blue. As far as the Church is concerned, and this Father Arseny explains beautifully, the revolution was a result of the clergy especially and the laity forgetting God, living an ungodly life, ... So the Church was in a bad state before the revolution and the revolution nearly destroyed what was left of it. Expecting everything to be rosy right away is, well, expecting somewhat of a miracle! And so far as I understand, much of the Russian clergy understands this quite well. The ones who survived Communism know what it's like to keep the flame burning despite dire circumstances, and they know that today's circumstances though better, are still dire.
Just finished: Father Arseny, 1893-1973: Priest, Prisoner, Spiritual Father : Being the Narratives Compiled by the Servant of God Alexander Concerning His Spiritual Father
Next up: The End Is Near...Or Maybe Not!
This book is good, written by an LDS member. D Michael Quinn is another excellent historian on this and other subjects.
Whether you agree with it or not, Prop 8 is a good watch, and would not require the investment of time that a book would.
By His Own Hand Upon Papyrus: A New Look at the Joseph Smith Papyri by Charles M. Larson
Quick read, great full color foldout photos of the papyri (best available anywhere, I believe).
No Man Knows My History by Fawn Brodie
https://www.amazon.com/His-Own-Hand-Upon-Papyrus/dp/0962096326
https://www.amazon.com/No-Man-Knows-My-History/dp/0679730540
I am so sorry that this is happening to you. You are right to be concerned - this could very easily tear your family apart. I have seen it happen firsthand when someone in my family was recruited into the Dubs then became totally alienated from her non-Dub husband. You could very easily end up in a situation where both your wife and your child are brainwashed into thinking you are a bad influence and that only other Dubs are worth spending time with. You definitely do not want to be complacent about this. The JWs are not "just another religion". It is a very dangerous and nasty cult.
My advice would be to immediately start "studying" the JWs yourself - but NOT with their own material. JWs don't know their own history very well at all, but you can find a lot of eye opening stuff using outside materials like http://www.jwfacts.com
Here are the three books that I would strongly recommend you purchase and start reading right away:
The Reluctant Apostate: Leaving the Jehovah's Witnesses (a very long and well-researched explanation of the JWs - if you can only read one of these books, I would make it this one)
Combating Cult Mind Control (not focused on just the JWs, but a general book about how cults operate and how to try to work with someone to get them out)
Crisis of Conscience (an older book written by one of the "Governing Body" members that ended up leaving the religion)
If you read those books, you will learn a LOT about how the JWs operate and have ample proof that this is not a legitimate religion. However, you can't confront her directly with this info. She has been programmed by the cult to reject any direct attack on the religion.
However, as you read them, you will probably think of some questions that you'll have for your wife about the Dubs. Start asking her questions NOT in an aggressive way but just in a "curious" sort of way. For example, "What do you make of [this thing]? What is the JW explanation for that?"
When people are being brainwashed, you can't confront them directly about it. That just makes them dig their heels in. You have to slowly dismantle the belief system by asking them questions and forcing them to realize for themselves that the cult doesn't have a good answer for it.
I also recommend trying your best to find excuses to spend time away from home on meeting days to keep her away from the dubs as much as possible. Time spent away from the indoctrination sessions can often help people realize on their own that it is bullshit.
Autogenerated.
Discussion Megathread: Leah Remini A&E Special + AMA Announcement for Cedars and Steve Hassan!
The long-awaited special will be airing at 9PM ET/PT on Tuesday November 13th, 2018. It will air on the cable channel A&E in the US.
We'll be trying to keep this post up to date with links/details on how to watch Leah's A&E expose as we get them in, so please comment below if you know of a way to watch that isn't listed.
Do you want to Thank Leah? Do that here! A few Folks are organizing a Twitter Storm to thank Leah on November 14, which you can read all about here, or see u/patlynnw:
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Watch in Canada on Optik/Teleus
How to Watch in the UK Sun Nov 18th, 7pm
(Possibly) Watch Online, after the fact:
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Special AMA Details!!
To ease your cult expose hangover, we will also be hosting TWO Special AMAs. Please give a massive thanks to both Cedars and Steve Hassan who have reached out and accepted our AMA invitations! Here is when all that is going down:
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Cedars, AKA the inimitable Lloyd Evans- Friday November 16th, 2018. Starting 8AMEST for appx. 24 hours.
Guys, it's Cedars!! Join us as we offer the chance to Q&A one of the most prominent activists in the EXJW community. Lloyd is best known as the Founder of JW Survey and the John Cedars Channel He has also recently authored a book, which is part of a greater wave that is making public the struggles of those in the EXJW community. Lloyd, if I've missed anything (as I am sure I have), let me know. :) For the rest of you, watch this space for the sticky, where you will be able to ask your quesetions!
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Steve Hassan- Monday November 19th, 2018. 9AM EST, for appx 24 Hours.
Let's have a round of applause for everyone's favorite cult deprogramming expert! Steve Hassan is the founder of Freedom of Mind, and a leading figure in the movement to define how cults operate and combat their effects. His book "Combating Cult Mind Control" is a cult favorite (no pun intended) among EXJWs and will be having its 30th anniversary this week. Here is an excerpt from his website, with more information:
>"Steven has helped thousands of former cult members and their families, clergy, psychologists and fellow cult experts over the years. He co-developed “Ending the Game”, a non-coercive curriculum designed to educate and empower commercial sex trafficking victims, and has spoken out about the effects, mechanisms, and signs of undue influence in its many forms on 60 Minutes, CNN, NPR, Good Morning America, The Today Show, Larry King Live, Oprah, and many other programs, as well as being featured in People Magazine, USA Today, Newsweek, The New York Times, The Washington Post, The Wall Street Journal, Chicago Tribune, The Guardian, and dozens of other major publications and websites."
Watch "Hot" sort for the sticky next Monday where you can ask Steve whatever you'd like! You won't want to miss this chance.
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PS- Sorry we had to clump it all together. Reddit only gives us two stickys.
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IamAbot_v01. Alpha version. Under care of /u/oppon.
Comment 1 of 1
Updated at 2018-11-12 08:24:51.091331
Next update in approximately 20 mins at 2018-11-12 08:44:51.091368
Has anybody read this?
I really enjoyed Kyria Abrams' memoir I'm Perfect, You're Doomed.
I'm not well equipped to provide many accessible sources on this, But the church's history in Utah is rife with blackmail and using prostitution etc.... as a means to this end. Smith seems to have done it, As did Young and his predecessors.
Right now I can only offer one credible online source as well as a few books, I've never really kept sources on this issue. EmmaHS, curious_mormon, AnotherClosetAtheist or Mythryn are typically better at providing sources, I'm just a local idiot. You can try bothering them to get something more useful, Mythryn keeps some information on his website, but it's not easy to search.
Here is a link to a Report by C. S. Varian, who was Assistant US Attorney in Utah territory during the 1880
The Mormon Hierarchy: Extensions of Power, has information that falls into this area. It's also a very good book for looking at the reality of the LDS leadership and their skeleton filled closets.
Prostitution, Polygamy, and Power: Salt Lake City, 1847-1918 by Jeffrey D. Nichols is another useful read.
That's the best I can do right now, I can't locate better/more available sources. But the Mods/power users I named above have also done posts and stuff about it in the past.
I found out 3 years ago that my mom was a narcissist. I started reading all the self-help books about narcissism. Then one day, I re-heard about how Joseph Smith had run for President and crowned himself King of Nauvoo. My heart sunk as the good ol HG whispered "Joseph was a narcissist." A Google search produced tons of results, including this book, which I highly recommend: https://www.amazon.com/Inside-Mind-Joseph-Smith-Psychobiography/dp/1560851252 Anderson diagnoses Smith as a narcissist and sociopath.
http://mormonstories.org/simon-southerton-dna-lamanites-and-the-book-of-mormon/
http://www.amazon.com/Losing-Lost-Tribe-Native-Americans/dp/1560851813
Rough Stone Rolling is good but soft-pedals some things.
Some of the stuff from the church historian's press looks worthwhile: https://www.churchhistorianspress.org/publications?lang=eng
Greg Kofford Books has an extensive history line. I've enjoyed what I've read and found it to be well done. https://gregkofford.com/
Natural Born Seer is good, more of a critical lens on Joseph Smith's early years, really intriguing.
Joseph's Temples regarding the Freemasonry connection.
People highly recommend D. Michael Quinn.
Leonard Arrington's stuff is supposed to be classic, Great Basin Kingdom.
David O. McKay and the Rise of Modern Mormonism by Gregory Prince.
Yes, I'm aware of Steven Shields, he's pretty cool. He also did the intro to the excellent Scattering Of The Saints.
I would like to mention that the Catholic Church divided from the true church in 1054. Pointless argument by the Catholic church since they are the first "Protestants." I do think that the TRUE church exists but it is neither in Catholicism or in Protestantism. A good comparison of Christian Doctrine, with great explanation is this book Orthodoxy and Heterodoxy
This is also available as a free podcast. Highlights theological differences and why they matter.
Edit: Wanted to add something
http://www.amazon.com/Joseph-Smith-Rough-Rolling-ebook/dp/B000XUBEZM
They have a "Kindle price". If you download the kindle reader for your phone, you should be able to buy it for $14, and read it at your leisure.
Read the book Everyday Saints
That's all you have to do.
Everyday Saints and Other Stories
read everyday Saints
A Crown of Life: A Novel of the Great Persecution is a good book, written by a Orthodox man (a deacon I believe).
Everyday Saints and Other Stories isn't fiction, but is still an interesting read.
This is just not true. Members of the Church (most notably Royal Skousen) have worked hard to try to make early versions available.
> No, they don’t know about them.
But they do. But they find a way to explain it all away as the work of the devil (but yet thanks to him they have the truth from the Garden of Eden and they can "fall upwards"!!! )
>they are worse than true believing Mormons.
And is there such a thing as a true believing Mormon?? After all, besides the "burning in the bosom" what exactly can a Mormon defend without committing some "intellectual suicide?"
Mormons that develop the discouraged "gospel hobbies" are the ones that eventually find the path out of the church.
And the ones that stay many are unbelievers who sit in the pews - as described in this book, whether anyone thinks they are bad or not.
At this point the evidence is more than clear. It's like arguing for a flat earth when many know otherwise.