Best classical literary criticism books according to redditors
We found 140 Reddit comments discussing the best classical literary criticism books. We ranked the 72 resulting products by number of redditors who mentioned them. Here are the top 20.
We found 140 Reddit comments discussing the best classical literary criticism books. We ranked the 72 resulting products by number of redditors who mentioned them. Here are the top 20.
I cannot speak for other Ancient Civilizations but, at least for the Romans, yes they did. A lot of the sources we have come from ancient graffiti at Pompeii and other well preserved archaeological sites. There are many things carved into the walls, among them were ads for prostitutes and even reviews. Some of the names we have found are regular Roman names, but others have a distinctly prostitute sense to them. Consider the name Culibonia: it is a corruption of common Roman matron names (Scribonia etc.) and culus [anus]. A prostitute with this name would have probably specialized in anal sex. Other names might advertise their ethnicity, such as Attia of Greek origin.
For further reading I would suggest:
Mythology by Edith Hamilton
> informal colloquialisms that never make it into writing
Those might be a little hard to find . . .
You should probably look at Adams 1982, but it's an academic study, not a handbook for fiction writers.
Chapters 37-40 of Roma Aeterna are in fact a prose adaption of Aeneis, introducing a lot of Vergilian vocab. The Ørberg edition Vergil: Aeneis Libros I et IV is designed to be read directly after RA chapter 40. So you won't need to finish RA for that.
Quoting Aeneis Libros I et IV:
>In margine paginarum explanantur vocabula
>quae non reperiuntur in libris quibus titulus est
>LINGVA LATINA PER SE ILLVSTRATA
>I. FAMILIA ROMANA, II. ROMA AETERNA cap. XXXVI-XL
Hey not to call you out (that username tho) but have you been to grad school or checked any programs out?
I personally studied under people who specialize in: Greek elegiac poetry, Greek legal history, Roman republican family structure, etc. And all three had a Sumer/Mesopotamia course. I don't mean they spent a year deciphering tablets like this, but simply learning the basics of cuneiform. The equivalent of this book which I studied in undergrad.
You realize that cuneiform is literally the bedrock on which the other written languages are based right? A basic understanding of it is certainly not a waste.
edited to fix link
Not only rhetoric, but the classics in general. Victor Davis Hanson may be a neocon, but he's based in certain ways. His book on the death of the classics -- or the centuries-old "traditional" liberal arts curriculum -- is relevant to this thread.
Marxists want our history to be destroyed, so what better way than to take over the schools and denigrate, if not totally ignore, the founders of the Western tradition?
It's weird how something like Cicero's On Duties was read by just about every educated person in Western Europe for centuries, but now students educated at American public schools will probably never hear of Cicero.
>I wouldn't recommend any single source in the first place.
I'll recommend a single source for hermetic philosophy: the Corpus Hermeticum.
I don't know how one would learn ecclesiastical latin exactly, but I quite like [Moreland and Fleischer] (http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/0520031830/ref=dp_olp_all_mbc?ie=UTF8&condition=all) although I've heard good things about Wheelock (probably the most famous latin textbook EVER)
The good thing about learning classical latin is that in a few weeks you'll be able to do medieval latin, and if you choose to keep going you can read awesome classical latin stuff.
Apps? Duolingo is pretty famous but idk if they have a latin section. I'm a big fan of Mango languages, and I know for a fact they do latin.
Once you've started you should look into Paul Hudson's SPQR app. It has (among a vast array of other stuff) a vulgate with english translation, parser, 2-way dictionary, all the charts and tables you need, and about a billion other things.
The most rigorous in terms of speed of content presentation and complexity thereof is probably Moreland & Fleischer's Latin: An Intensive Course; it even introduced the subjunctive in chapter 2! That's not to say it's the best, but it is probably the most rigorous.
Alexander II of Macedon, the more famous Alexander's uncle? Wow, he's niche - I think I've only ever come across him through his association with Iphicrates, the Athenian general. I'm not an expert on ancient Macedonia, mind. Out of interest typed him to Google Scholar and JSTOR and absolutely nothing crops up, so he might be fun to research as there doesn't seem to be much work on him.
I can see from Oxford Classical dictionary that ancient sources to Alexander II are Diodorus of Sicily's Bibliotheca Historica 15, 60-77, Plutarch's Life of Pelopidas, and Aeschines' oration On the Embassy. You'll be able to get all of these online on public domain (i.e. really old) translations. I can only make an informed recommendation for a Plutarch translation if you want to invest on a good, up-to-date translation with full notes and introduction, and that's Waterfield's Oxford Classic translation.
For secondary reading, I'd go to Blackwell's and/or Brill's companions on Ancient Macedonia, see what they have on Alexander II, and they should point you to the direction of any secondary reading, if there is some to be found. The companions are ridiculously expensive though so you'll prob need to go to your closest university library to get access to them. Also, I haven't gotten my hands on one myself but Elizabeth Carney's recently published collection of essays on Macedonian court might be worth checking out as well.
Good luck with your project and let us know how you get on, interesting stuff!
If you want to know more about Greek myths in general, I wouldn't recommend translations of old Greek texts, but rather classical mythologists summaries along with the possible interpretations, common motifs, themes, etc. For this, I recommend Edith Hamilton's Mythology.
Another way to go is to check out mythology textbooks. They still retell the stories, give insights, common interpretations and what not (albeit in a drier tone), but they also include archaeological finds that might have contributed to the development of the myths, religious ceremonies and cults that arose from the myths. For this, the only one I've read is Morford's Classical Mythology.
I think that going these two routes are better than just stepping into translations of say, Homer or Hesiod, without context of the culture that these myths arise from . And if like me, people just like crazy stories that have been passed down to us, seeing a long list of descendants and an entire book of armies gathering to set sail for Troy doesn't make for the most exciting read.
Personally my path began with The Kybalion, The Emerald Tablet , and The Corpus Hermeticum (Copenhavers Translation).
I have yet to finish the Hermeticum, but from there my own path led me into the Hermetic Qabalah System (not to be confused with the original Jewish Kabbalah, or Christian Cabala).
Your path may be very different than mine! Go with the flow and try not to stress yourself out too much in the beginning. A lot of the work can be heavy and take time to understand and apply.
r/occult has lots of useful information to get started via their search bar as well! Their “about” section (which might be a sidebar on PC I think?) has a ton of related subreddits as well that are very useful.
I would have never learned it if I didnt have a teacher. Honestly your best bet is to sign up for greek class at a local Bible College.
However if you do want to learn it alone, you have several options.
The best option is to buy Logos software THis has countless tools to help you learn Koine.
If you are looking for a text book, start with this book
THis book will help you with words, grammar of Koine, and interpreting sentences. All the basics you need to start translating the Bible. If you can successfully work your way through this book. You will be able to get the gist of most Bible passages.
In addition to all of this, Koine Greek is to common day greek as Shakespere english is to us but it still may help you to subscribe to the Greek subreddit here. If you can read that, you can read anything.
Here are some links for the product in the above comment for different countries:
Link: On Duties
|Country|Link|
|:-----------|:------------|
|UK|amazon.co.uk|
|Spain|amazon.es|
|France|amazon.fr|
|Germany|amazon.de|
|Japan|amazon.co.jp|
|Canada|amazon.ca|
|Italy|amazon.it|
|China|amazon.cn|
This bot is currently in testing so let me know what you think by voting (or commenting).
Chase and Phillips is pretty decent (though definitely reflects the period when it was written):
https://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/0674616006/ref=mw_dp_olp?ie=UTF8&condition=all
Hansen and Quinn is also good:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/0823216632/ref=mw_dp_olp?ie=UTF8&condition=all
I’ve taught with H&Q and used C&P as a supplement when I started to learn Greek.
If you're reviewing something you learned a while ago, brushing up on fundamentals, might I recommend using Mastronarde's intro to Attic Greek? You can pick it up for under $10.
As I mentioned in a previous thread:
I came into second year Attic with shaky Greek. I was supposed to be reading Xenophon - a good place to start, by the way, with straightforward Attic syntax, and a good learning edition - but I'd come into second year Attic with some problems, namely:
My prof recommended Mastronarde, in her words "the best second intro Greek book." It has some negative reviews on Amazon, for being "like a firehose" for someone just starting out; it probably is. But for someone who already has some grasp of Greek, it's almost miraculously lucid and systematic. My Greek improved exponentially from studying it: I've got Smyth's grammar for detailed specific questions of study, but when I want to just brush up my Greek, that's where I go. You can skim some of the earlier chapters, and start digging in more deeply once you get to some of the tougher stuff: subjunctive, optative. And it's got guidance on what you should prioritize learning.
A classics scholar's review if you want more info.
Anne Groton a great recommendation, but don't forget about Donald Mastronarde's brilliant Introduction to Attic Greek. One piece of advice that I would offer from my own experience is to go really far out of your way to learn the different forms of the definite article early on. Knowing them will allow you to parse the basic grammatical structure of a sentence quite easily.
I find Allen and Greenough useful as a reference book, but I wouldn't recommend that someone sit down and just read through it as grammar review. I'd suggest Moreland and Fleischer for that instead.
I don't have this text, but it seems decent:
https://www.amazon.com/Rerum-Natura-Latin-Lucretius-English/dp/0299003647
And from what I've read of DRN, it's definitely worth it.
In general, R.O. Faulker's translations of the Pyramid Texts, Coffin Texts, and the Book of Going forth by Day are much preferable to Budge's ancient and inaccurate versions. Egyptology has come a loooong way in the past 100 years, and there's a lot of inaccurate, biased info in the old stuff that would distort the reader's understanding of just about every aspect of Ancient Egyptian religion. In general, the newer the translation, the more accurate it will be.
OP, other books I can personally recommend include:
The Complete Gods and Goddesses of Ancient Egypt Paperback by Richard H. Wilkinson
I have this edition, but interestingly, it seems to lack "Hermes Trismegistus, His First Book". The Copenhaver edition begins with "(Discourse) of Hermes Trismegistus: Poimandres". The edition which includes The First Book is called "The Divine Pymander". Both of these can be bought on Amazon.
"The Divine Pymander"
https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B002ECE6GQ/internetsacredte
"Hermetica"
(Copenhaver Translation)
https://www.amazon.com/Hermetica-Hermeticum-Asclepius-Translation-Introduction-dp-0521425433/dp/0521425433/ref=mt_paperback?_encoding=UTF8&me=&qid=1537562450
No, I think “her owner” would be in the accusative (dominum suum). The vocative (domine) is what you use to address people when talking to them, as in “I will, oh dear lord”.
A shame your class environment was hostile. Way before I thought I’d ever try BDSM, I had a literary theory teacher who was very much an S&M pig, and he’d often use examples from such scenarios; the discomfort of the class was amusing :)
Learning a language to fluency is hard, but if all you want to do is to sprinkle a few words for effect, the Internet is there to help. I actually don’t know Latin myself; I looked it all up on wiktionary, the wikibook, and Perseus. You might also be interested in this (light fun reading) or this one (dry, academic, but full of interesting words).
You may find some value in "Arcana Mundi" compiled by Georg Luck.
Bradley's Arnold Latin Composition: https://www.amazon.com/Bradleys-Arnold-Composition-College-Classical/dp/0892411198
Fleischer & Moreland (intensive grammar study): https://www.amazon.com/Latin-Intensive-Floyd-L-Moreland/dp/0520031830
​
This is the text I used when I was doing my MA thesis on Lucretius. It's pretty good.
https://www.amazon.com/Rerum-Natura-Latin-Lucretius-English/dp/0299003647
Once you start researching Esoteric interpretations, and secret societies, you won't turn back.
I suggest you start with "The Kybalion", and "Hermetica: The Greek Corpus Hermeticum and the Latin Asclepius" http://www.amazon.com/Hermetica-Hermeticum-Asclepius-Translation-Introduction/dp/0521425433. This will give you a good base of understanding the source of mystery religions.
After reading these books you are going to need to decide on what your morals are, and what are your goals for learning the material? Are you learning to be wiser, and closer to God? Or to serve yourself? There are many schools and societies for both.
You might like to try Cynthia Claxton's Attica: Intermediate Classical Greek.
With the victory of the Grancius River, Alexander's Macedonians were in bouyant moods, yet the cities of Asia Minor stood in their way and soon the Great King himself was looking to respond.
Follow us on twitter at https://twitter.com/ApocHistory
Sources for the Episode.
By the Spear: Philip II, Alexander the Great, and the Rise and Fall of the Macedonian Empire (Ancient Warfare and Civilization) By Ian Worthington
A Companion to Ancient Macedonia by Joseph Roisman and Ian Worthington
A History of Macedonia by R. Malcolm Errington
Alexander the Great by R. Lane Fox
this one - 45 pounds, I am offering 10 of my premades
book- 20 pounds - 5 premadespayment: amazon.co.uk gc, giftrocket, many vids tip or crypto
premades lists here!
Would maybe start with an overview on underworld texts
Amduat and Amduat explained
Pyramid Texts
Book of the Dead (very large pages with full color plates of the Ani papyrus + translations)
Coffin Texts
Book of Gates and Book of Gates explained
Some of these may be available for PDF download elsewhere, if you search by ISBN.
Guns, Germs, and Steel
Mistakes were made but not by me
How to Read Egyptian Hieroglyphs
Why not just go for Attic Greek, and use Mastronarde. I'm using it, and am about on chapter 20 so far.
Perhaps if you could give us some idea of what the intermediate level is? Maybe you could give us some idea of the problems you will be asked to do, or literature you will be asked to read?
Depending on your level of practice and dedication, I think in general that this is possible. I enjoy this book and would recommend it: Latin: An Intensive Course. Of course, you should also look at whatever books your college is using for its curriculum.
typische Verbindungen = Kollokationen?
I'm going to assume you've already gone through Lingua Latina 1 and 2. (BTW there are other ones with the same style of Latin glosses like: https://www.amazon.com/Caesaris-Commentarii-Gallico-Lingua-Latina/dp/1585102326/ref=pd_sim_14_13?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=1585102326&pd_rd_r=JCPQ1JW98FZ0FFP1PYK2&pd_rd_w=nWCk3&pd_rd_wg=GI00g&psc=1&refRID=JCPQ1JW98FZ0FFP1PYK2
but they're kind of hard to find apparently, considering they just throw "Lingua LAtina" after to show the edition...
Here's one with some bible stuff: https://www.amazon.com/Epitome-Historiae-Sacrae-Christi-Narratione/dp/1585104256/ref=pd_sim_14_20?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=1585104256&pd_rd_r=RYEWCXZ23VQX695ER2NS&pd_rd_w=dv3qm&pd_rd_wg=FpPNK&psc=1&refRID=RYEWCXZ23VQX695ER2NS
.
https://www.amazon.com/Ars-Amatoria-Lingua-Latina-Ovid/dp/1585106348/ref=pd_sim_14_13?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=1585106348&pd_rd_r=AGTD6A26M03XJPTCYDW0&pd_rd_w=dE96G&pd_rd_wg=87lDQ&psc=1&refRID=AGTD6A26M03XJPTCYDW0
.
https://www.amazon.com/Sallustius-Cicero-Catilina-Lingua-Latina/dp/1585103675/ref=pd_sim_14_4?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=1585103675&pd_rd_r=AGTD6A26M03XJPTCYDW0&pd_rd_w=dE96G&pd_rd_wg=87lDQ&psc=1&refRID=AGTD6A26M03XJPTCYDW0
.
https://www.amazon.com/Amphitryo-Comoedia-Lingua-Latina-Plautus/dp/158510194X/ref=pd_sim_14_9?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=158510194X&pd_rd_r=AGTD6A26M03XJPTCYDW0&pd_rd_w=dE96G&pd_rd_wg=87lDQ&psc=1&refRID=AGTD6A26M03XJPTCYDW0
.
https://www.amazon.com/Vergil-Aeneis-Libros-Lingua-Latina/dp/158510633X/ref=pd_sim_14_2?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=158510633X&pd_rd_r=AGTD6A26M03XJPTCYDW0&pd_rd_w=dE96G&pd_rd_wg=87lDQ&psc=1&refRID=AGTD6A26M03XJPTCYDW0
I'm kind of concerned about the... contents, they seem rather short (only 2 books + parts of the Aeneid?) But if it keeps the method up like I've been told once or twice and you've not passed the level where you can breeze through it, it could be useful and worth it? Even for what shouldn't be more than a few days of reading at most. :P
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There's a book called Colloquial and Literary Latin by Eleannor Dickey which shows a lot of "incorrections" found in various writers, i.e. how they violate the rules taught by grammar obsessed professors etc. It's kind of cool/fun.
You know Vox Latina, right?
-----------------------
My personal path through Latin was like... LinguaLatinaLinguaLatinaLinguaLatinaLinguaLatinaLinguaLatinaLinguaLatinaLinguaLatinaLinguaLatinaLinguaLatinaLinguaLatina OOH LIVING LATIN, WAIT THEY'RE FREAKS, Oh cool I'll do some stuff at uni... Oh God, I'm already in advanced classes because these Germans doing it highschool know nothing, oh, that TA is hawt! I'll go to those things and listen to her talk about Homer even though I don't know Greek! Oh cool, this Czech guy online speaks it well! Oooh lala.
Then I read funny medieval texts (digitized since I can't make my way through pictures/the different scripts they use, but one day I'll even learn the shorthand!)
So... This... http://guindo.pntic.mec.es/jmag0042/LATIN_PALEOGRAPHY.pdf
http://learningtechnologies.truman.edu/r_harrison/charpcl.htm (make sure to scroll down, it has multiple scroll bars (badly cody) so it's annoying, but there's a bit of stuff there)
A. G. Rigg's A History of Anglo Latin Literature: 1066-1422 is cool.
One of my favorite books ever is: Intellectual Culture in Elizabethan and Jacobean England
But good luck finding it, I only found it once in a library I visited, goes over all the writers from like 1500-1600 in England, all the plays, poems, swimming manuals and so on they wrote, stylistics, errors common to certain printers, vocab about the different printers, and all this stuff!
(It also gave me my favorite language learning technique, of translating something from the language, then back in it and comparing, so as to notice and learn someone's style etc.)
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But that's... not quite what you're looking for I guess.
THIS IShttp://linguax.com/lexica/wagner.php?searchedLG=latinitas (I hope)
There are quite a few synonyms etc. listed for more... core words like: http://linguax.com/lexica/wagner.php?searchedLG=filius
Da findste auch diese typischen Verbindungen, soweit ich durchblick, worauf der Duden damit hin will :D
(There're more on the site like: http://www.linguax.com/lexica/ but Wagner's the best I think)
You coul also try: https://books.google.com/books?id=1IwAAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false
Maybe those help?
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k61498463/f91.item.zoom
I have been reading on this topic lately. I have found the Anthony Everitt books to be both informative and entertaining -- he provides context and narrative on the fly which is nice. I also read Caesar's chronicles of the Gallic campaign which are a little more direct and rough around the edges but every bit as interesting -- it seems that the Romans' true superiorities were in thorough planning and feats of engineering. I'm reading a book about Augustus Caesar which is quite interesting but obviously more focused on politics and administration. Tom Holland's "Rubicon" gets recommended a lot and I enjoyed that -- centers around the civil wars. Lots of interesting stuff to read; I will be reading the other redditor's SPQR recommendation next. Most of these are available at Barnes; the rest on Amazon.
Edit: Gallic wars here
Thank you for posting this! A short note on bibliography: Mead's translation of Corpus Hermeticum is nice because it is free (link), but one of the best modern translations is the (non-free) one of Copenhaver (link) .
For ww2, Antony Barbour is one of my favorite authors, and I'd recommend his books on dday and Stalingrad. For ancient history, get the Gallic wars by Caesar. He goes into extremely fine detail about all the major battles of the Gallic wars. I'd recommend getting a version that's both in Latin and translated. This is the one I have, it has Latin on the left and English on the right, so if you're confused by what its saying, just directly translate the Latin. Caesar was both a strategic and tactical genius, and was able to put that down on paper for us.
I find Timeless Tales of Gods and Heroes to be a good read for a more summary-based approach. HERE
Beyond that, I would suggest the Iliad and the Odyssey as good starting points. Personally, I find the Odyssey to be a much better read, so I'd start with the and then read the Iliad to fill in the larger scope of information.
Truth! Although, you need to pick up this book. It's J. N. Adams' The Latin Sexual Vocabulary and it's pretty much all that we do know from dirty poetry, the words that have come down through various Romance languages, and graffiti. Although, according to Adams, breasts weren't quite so shocking and thus there aren't really any "naughty" terms for them. So, as you've already found, mamma and mamilla are the primary terms. Uber was the more "formal" term.
But yeah, also you were right. Ars Gratia Mammarum or Ars Gratia Mamillarum.
I went through this textbook with a student, and found it fantastic: Attica: Intermediate Greek.
I think it would be ideal for a self-teacher. It is very user-friendly.
I have that same Penguin version of de rerum natura, but I'll check out the Loeb one. I see that the new Penguin version is done by A.E. Stallings, who seems to be well regarded, so I might check that out as well. This seems to be a reliable versed translation, or so reviewers ranked highly by google tell me. Alas, I've read the wikipedia and many random articles on sexuality in Rome, I'll just have to use the google to find further resources. Thanks for the recommendations.
It's included here, along with many other discourses. I highly recommend it :)
Ah, oh well.
I'm looking to pick up The Nature of the Gods for Christmas or whatnot since Oxford World Classics has a translation. From everything I've read that was published by them, they've tended to be the best, as well as safest, bet when it comes to translations. They've also got a great looking translation of Lucretius.
https://www.amazon.com/Companion-Ancient-Greek-Language/dp/1118782917/ref=pd_sbs_14_13?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=1118782917&pd_rd_r=094517dd-925e-4967-8eb1-6d1b55ad99e9&pd_rd_w=YJxCt&pd_rd_wg=XUxCa&pf_rd_p=52b7592c-2dc9-4ac6-84d4-4bda6360045e&pf_rd_r=8MMR48QBTPJ4CW8EXCSE&psc=1&refRID=8MMR48QBTPJ4CW8EXCSE
​
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1405149256/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1
​
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1118785150/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1
I can't believe that no one has yet mentioned that there is an entire Latin-English dictionary devoted to sexual vocabulary. That's the real goldmine for useless Latin words (unless you're reading Catullus).
If you're looking for something more about why Homer and classical lit of that stuff is still relevant, try this http://www.amazon.com/Who-Killed-Homer-Classical-Education/dp/1893554260/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1420074822&sr=8-1&keywords=who+killed+homer
He actually explains the point of Homer and the purpose of classical lit without just summarizing scholarship.
ooc: I have:
This one
this one
This one!
If your understanding of grammar needs work, I highly recommend at a minimum picking up a used Latin grammar (like this one or this one) and reading through the grammar explanation bits. That should give you more solid ground, especially with declensions.
edit: Oh, or maybe this.
Yes. This one. There may be a better one, but that's the Classical Greek grammar that was recommended to me and that I have.
Despite your lack of success the first time, I would think your prior exposure would make things a bit easier this time through.
I recommend Classical Mythology. It's expensive but I still go back and read it from time to time.
To this great list I’d like to add
https://www.amazon.com/Companion-Ancient-Greek-Language/dp/1118782917/ref=mp_s_a_1_21?keywords=companion+to+greek&qid=1563969412&s=gateway&sr=8-21
And
https://www.amazon.com/Brief-History-Ancient-Greek/dp/1405149256/ref=mp_s_a_1_5?keywords=colvin+greek&qid=1563969452&s=gateway&sr=8-5
Arcana Mundi: Magic and the Occult in the Greek and Roman Worlds: A Collection of Ancient Texts by Georg Luck
Ok this is LONG, and I am agnostic so please read this with that understood. Not all of the views are mine but I have attempted to understand the view points instead of trying to crush them with my own opinions.
>How can these people honestly say that they're being a force for good in this world?
Can you define "good" for me?
>they used the bible to support their cause, stating that their side is the "biblical" side of the issue. Looking back at those issues, we know these people had a severely distorted view of the bible. The same will be true with this issue.
Are you saying no "good" has ever been done in the name of the bible?
>I think because of the name, people simply associate homosexuality with sex
What is the definition your going off of? The dictionary defines it as: "a sexual attraction to (or sexual relations with) persons of the same sex." Seems to me its sort of right in the definition.
>Even if you are ashamed of how you feel, you are still homosexual. Even if you pretend to be straight your whole life, you are still homosexual.
Im not sure I agree fully with this but I understand the argument. Does that mean tho that if you were with only men as a man that is attracted to females that you are really straight? What about the people over at /r/pegging? They are men who are having anal penetrative sex from woman, are they gay? My point is your view on sexuality seems to still be a black and white spectrum and that just isnt the case. Source
>Sin is the word we use in religion for when somebody does something wrong.>
>sin/sin/
Noun:
An immoral act considered to be a transgression against divine law.
Verb:
Commit a sin.
Thats the definition that I am working on would you agree?
>Therefore, in order to sin, you must choose to do the wrong thing over the right thing.
Nope you can unknownly sin, choice factors no where into it. Choice only becomes involved once you understand the sin and choose to continue but does nothing to remove the sin.
>As we just established, homosexuality is not a choice. Therefore it can not be a sin.
See above. You established nothing, you provide no source, all you did was state an opinion. That is not establishing anything.
> An "act" of homosexuality is a way for a gay person to show their love to their partner, just as an "act" of heterosexuality is the way for a straight person to do the same. The difference between the two is simply their sexual orientation. So why is a straight "act" okay, but yet a gay "act" not okay?
Ok so lets change the word "homosexuality" with "beastiality" or "pedophiles". Does this mean that as long as the guy really loves his goat, or a 5 year old and cant help but love them we should allow them to be married? You cant propose in one breath that love isnt a choice and than decide that it is after it no longer meets your needs.
>As we just explained how sexual orientation can not possibly be viewed as a sin, your argument falls apart.
But as I explained how it can be does that mean yours falls apart? No, you still have some valid opinions but Im getting there.
>The key word here is "abomination". In the original language and context, the word that we have translated as "abomination" was referring to something that went against the traditions of the society, and as such was viewed as unacceptable, unclean, and shameful, and was therefore forbidden under the law, and in this case, a capital crime. The important thing to note, however, is that the word being translated to "abomination" in this context is not referring to morality. It does not mean sin. This is important. So while homosexuality was viewed as unacceptable in that culture, it was not defined as a sin.
The old saying is "Give a Man Enough Rope and He’ll Eventually Hang Himself" Im very interested in arguing this point but would like to know your source. With out that we are back to arguing what you feel, and as important as that is to you, its just a hill of beans to everyone else.
>These people did not have a modern definition of homosexuality. They didn't understand that it was possible for a person to love someone of the same sex.
This part was very interesting to me. Are you saying that people of that era (which you dont say but I am guessing means Jessus or before?) had 0 people world wide living in homosexual relationships? If thats the case when, in your expert opinion did homosexuality become a "thing"?
I agree they didnt have the term, but there are plenty of extra-biblical sources that discuss gay males. Are you saying you havent heard or seen any of them?
Source 1
Source 2
Give them a read.
>This is one of hundreds of traditional laws the early Israelites put in place that christians no longer follow. If christians are so willing to ignore the hundreds of other traditional laws, why not this one?
FYI most of the laws your talking about are from the OT and many Christans believe that Jesus's birth was a changing of directions as pointed out in Romans 7:6 "But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code." Just an FYI.
>As you can see, Paul uses the term "shameful lusts"
"God gave them over to shameful lusts" I dont think Paul is talking about a lack of love, he is talking about a punishment God thought worthy of evil doers. Kind of like he made them have gay sex he was so mad at them, because its such a shameful act!
>the word sometimes translated as homosexuality in these passages is simply a generic Greek word for sexual sin [...] Greek culture of the time was far more accepting of homosexuality as being a natural phenomenon
Source?
>Some people also reference passages where examples are made of male and female marriages. These have nothing to do with homosexuality whatsoever. As male/female marriage was a social expectation, it would make no sense to refer to marriage in any other way, so the fact that they refer to marriage in the way they did is not in any way evidence against gay marriage. In fact, the bible gives many examples of types of marriages which would be illegal in much of the world today.
Mat 19:3 The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause? Mat 19:4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, Mat 19:5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? Mat 19:6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
Seems rather cut and dry to me? How are you interpreting that?
>The banning of homosexuality has no secular purpose. As such, it violates the establishment clause in the first amendment to the constitution, and is therefore unconstitutional.
There are benefits given to married men and woman that are given with the expectation that they are going to contribute to the future of the human race via reproduction (not the case 100% of the time but it was generally given to promote familys). To give those benefits to people unable to contribute in the same way is punishing the people that are receiving them and contributing.
>Never assume anything about the bible
Ahh the only part of your post I can agree with.
>You are celebrating that they don't have the freedom to marry the one they love, and as I said, how in the world can that possibly be considered "Christ like"?
No they are fighting to protect what they hold dear. This isnt a we hate you, so you cant get married. It is a "we" have been instructed by "our" deity that this is immoral, and against nature. Arent you attempting to "belittling others and making them feel inferior" with this post?