(Part 3) Top products from r/exmormon

The existentialism is real in the wake of losing your worldview. All the pep-talks in the world about "go live your life, the world is amazing!" meant nothing to me. I didn't know how to move forward. For some of us, the loss is huge and the existential dread (with its accompanying anxiety and depression) is absolutely consuming.

Ultimately, the study of philosophy and the nature of existence was the way out and the door to a meaningful post-Mormon life for me. I read and studied a bunch of stuff, but the below list was some of the most helpful. I ultimately chose to go with a personalized form of stoicism to fill the void left by Mormonism. Others prefer secular Buddhism, etc. If you still like Jesus as a moral guide (like I do in a lot of ways), this is a great short podcast about Jesus as a moral philosopher.

Anyway, I found the below very helpful in my transition:

• Philosphize This! podcast. Start with episode 1 and just listen all the way through. It's great and he even mentions Mormonism a few times.
  
  
• The Power of Now by Tolle.
  
  
• The Happiness Trap by Harris.
  
  
• Man's Search for Meaning by Frankl.
  
  
• Man's Search for Ultimate Meaning (A follow-on of above--focus on the later chapters in this book.)
  
  
• The Alchemist by Coelho.
  
  
• A New Earth by Tolle.
  
  
• A Confession by Tolstoy. Free download.
  
  
• What I Believe, also by Tolstoy and a follow-on to the above Tolstoy book. Free download at link if you look for it. Auido book here.
  
  If you're interested in stoic philosophy as a replacement for Mormonism:
  
  
• Start with this easy article for a nice overview. The rest of this blog can be helpful, too. For example, here's a great recent article.
  
  
• This book. It can be a bit long in places, but it's an easy read and gives an awesome overview.
  
  
• Meditations by Marcus Aurelius. The Audible version of this is really good, too, if you have a daily commute, etc.
  
   
  
  Finally, it gets better! Take it a day (or a month) at a time and keep searching and you'll eventually land in a good spot! Good luck, and stick with it!

Over the past several years I've personally gravitated toward a blend of stoicism and "secular Christianity." I know many others go the route of secular Buddhism (Noah Rasheta, who is also an exMo runs secularbuddhism.com which you might want to check out) and others (most?) simply go the route of ethical hedonism.

I personally gravitated toward stoicism because it isn't a religion and has no real religious underpinning. Instead, it's normally referred to as just a "philosophy of life." It has worked well for me as a backfill to religion. You'll also find that different people have different views of what it means to "practice" stoicism, so it's nice in that you can kind of adapt it to fit your personal preferences.

Here are some recommendations if you want to look into it:

• Start with this easy article for a nice overview. Then continue to read other articles on the How to be a Stoic blog. It's a great resource.
  
  
• I'd recommend this book as well. It can be a bit long in places, but it's an easy read and gives an awesome overview.
  
  
• Finally, you should also read Meditations by Marcus Aurelius. I have an audio version from Audible that's excellent and I enjoyed listening to it much more than reading it, but there are free copies all over the place to download and read in Kindle if you just Google it.
  
  Aside from stoicism, studying and learning about philosophy in general has been a huge cushion for me in dealing with the existential crisis that often follows losing belief in Mormonism. Google the Philosophize This! podcast and start at episode 1 if you're interested. It's great. I also really enjoy the Philosophy Bites podcast. Other than the above, the following were also very helpful to me in finding a approach to life without "God" and without religion:
  
  
• The Power of Now by Tolle.
  
  
• The Happiness Trap by Harris.
  
  
• Man's Search for Meaning by Frankl.
  
  
• Man's Search for Ultimate Meaning (A follow-on of above--focus on the later chapters in this book.)
  
  
• The Alchemist by Coelho.
  
  
• A New Earth by Tolle.
  
  
• A Confession by Tolstoy. Free download.
  
  
• What I Believe, also by Tolstoy and a follow-on to the above Tolstoy book. Free download at link if you look for it. Auido book here.
  
  All of the above combined with a few long years of figuring things out got me to a good place. But everyone's journey is different, so do what you think will work best for you...and good luck!
  
  
  

You may already be familiar with this, but I can't recommend enough Steven Hassan's books and website. He's probably the country's leading expert on cults and getting people out of cults.

The BITE Model demonstrates how cults get their hooks in you; and from this, it's clear to me that a mission is like a cult-within-a-cult, similar to the Sea Org with Scientology.

His book Combating Cult Mind Control fleshes out the BITE Model and does a great job helping us understand how the whole process works. For me, having this understanding has helped me to be kinder and more compassionate toward my TBM loved ones, and just help me to not go crazy when dealing with them. His explanation of the divided self (indoctrination creates a second, "cult" personality that suppresses, but never fully destroys, one's true self - even with people born into these groups) also gives me hope to rescue my family before too long.

Freedom of Mind, which I've only just started, appears to show the process he uses to help get people out. He goes into some of it in this excellent video.

I really hope this helps. Best of luck.

I'm so sorry for your pain. I can empathize. My fiancé and I are in the middle of planning our own wedding to take place later this year. We've extended invitations to all of our TBM family members and while it seems like most are going to come, there are a few who refuse. It's frustrating because I know that they feel like their decision is justified and that they are "taking a stand" but really, shouldn't family come first... ALWAYS? Attending a gay loved one's wedding to show your love for that member does not necessarily equal an endorsement. I wish they could see that and realize that they need to start owning their religion instead of letting it own them. The one small token of advise I can give you is to get your hand on THIS BOOK. It's cheap, and you can even get the Kindle version if you prefer. I bear my unholy exmo testimony that this book will change your life for the better (way more than the BOM). After you've read it, I encourage you to share it with your family that may be struggling with you and your future wife. I know it sounds like I'm proselyting like some missionary but I can't help it. I am so passionate about this book. I gave it to my parents and other family members and it COMPLETLEY changed their perspectives. It also helped my fiancé and his family, as well as friends we know. Please take my word for it and get yourself a copy of this book. The beauty of it is that it is written by an active LDS woman, who is known by many older Mormons for her poetry. She also wrote that primary song "I'll walk with you" (and she didn't write it in reference to the handicap like I was taught growing up). Sorry for rambling a bit here at the end, but the point is the author, Carol Lynn Pearson, is viewed to be a non-threatening, credible source for TBM's. They'll actually give her a chance. :)

I just wanted to reach out to Brother Mattson and let him know about all of the other ways that we should be measuring the worth of our lives. Hans has a loving wife, loving children, and an interesting life filled with the best of modern civilization. His hope in Jesus Christ is one of pillars of western civilization. Intellectual integrity is its own reward. It's a gift a man gives himself.

Hans and Birgitta stared down into an eternal abyss ruled by a vindictive god and found a more authentic divinity complete with a hope in Christ they could not find inside the walls of the Frankfurt temple during a Second Anointing. His actions probably were a major contributor to the gospel topic essays, the "Saints" book, and the pants-wetting terror lurking behind the scene among the apostles. The institutional church is no longer poised to convert the whole planet. They are worried about remaining functional in Europe and relevant in the United States.

I will happily buy him a drink if I ever meet Brother Mattson. I suppose the least I can do is buy his book.

Have been in the exact same boat and I feel like it took me a lot longer to work through it than most. Also went from being very focused to not being able to focus on anything at all, worried about my job performance, unable to get out of bed on weekends, etc. Prior to my learning that Mormonism was false, I had never experienced a day of depression in my life, but after my world came crashing down it became a long, dark tunnel. Anyway, it's called an existential crisis if you haven't read up on it already. Give it time and keep working on things and I promise it will eventually improve. For what it's worth, these four books were game changers for me (check them out if you're interested:

• A Confession by Tolstoy. In it, Tolstoy describes how he navigated his own existential crisis. It's a short read and the link takes you to a free downloadable e-book.
  
  
• The Power of Now by Tolle. It provides an excellent approach for developing mindfulness and learning to accept life as it is.
  
  
• Man's Search for Ultimate Meaning by Frankl. This is a heavy read, so if you don't like the first half, just focus on chapters 6, 7, and 8. It covers the intersection of religion and meaning in life.
  
  
• A New Earth by Tolle. Similar to the above "Power of Now." Focuses on being present, overcoming the ego, and accepting and finding peace in life as it's given.
  
  You may not agree with everything in the books above (I didn't) but they provided me with a lot of invaluable perspective in working through my own loss of faith and the existential vacuum that followed. Stick with it and know that you're not suffering alone! And I promise things will get better.

In regards to your wife's questioning of TSCC and possible loss of faith, there are many resources online about exiting from cults and other controlling environments. There are books available which help you navigate these processes so you know what you're feeling is normal and expected. Here are some books which I purchased but have not read, yet. I felt they came well recommended.

• Leaving the Fold by Marlene Winnell
  
  
• Exit Strategy: A Guide to Leaving Mormonism with your Dignity and Integrity Intact by Micah McAllister
  
  If she is not interested in reading them, you might just to coach her along in a passive way.
  
  Also, you mentioned her receiving one-on-one counseling sessions for your relationship. In losing my own testimony, I did find a competent therapist I visited once in awhile to discuss what was going on. I felt the counseling very helpful and probably assisted me in transitioning out much more quickly.
  
  Best of luck to ya.

First, you're not alone. I was in my early 30's when I lost my faith and it took me 2 years to get over the depression and existential vacuum that Joe's lies left behind.

I was able to eventually work my way through it without meds or any serious counseling, but it was a grueling couple of years. Everyone has to figure out their own path, but what helped me most was reading from others who had faced the same existential vacuum and found a way to navigate it. A few titles that I would highly recommend are:

• The Power of Now by Tolle.
  
• Meditations by Marcus Aurelius. Best on audiobook.
  
• Man's Search for Meaning by Frankl.
  
• Man's Search for Ultimate Meaning (A follow-on of above--focus on the later chapters in this book.)
  
• The Alchemist by Coelho.
  
• A New Earth by Tolle.
  
• A Confession by Tolstoy. Free download.
  
• What I Believe, also by Tolstoy and a follow-on to the above Tolstoy book. Free download at link if you look for it.
  
  The above, coupled with a lot of patience, exercise, sleep, and proper diet got me through my deep existential crisis. The existentialism still shows up now and then, but it's totally manageable. Good luck to you! You'll have good days and worse days, but stick with it!--I promise it gets better!

Just gonna throw this out there - most of me and my wife's shelf breakers came from books or film that wouldn't traditionally be seen as related to mormonism. Our brains were just too wired to sniff that stuff out and reject it even if engaging with it. Instead I'd recommend two of the most powerful books I ever read and obiliterated my testimony without so much as a mention of Mormon history:

The Greatest Show On Earth by Richard Dawkins - Dawkins has a bit of a reputation as a vocal Atheist so your wife may already be biased. But if not - he is a wonderful writer, capable of relaying complex scientific principles in easy-to-understand layman's terms. So clear and levelheaded, it's essentially impossible to read this book and not have a minor stroke from the cognitive dissonance it throws on every concept of a divine creator that's ever existed.

Varieties of Scientific Experience by Carl Sagan - Carl Sagan was the original 'make science cool and accessible' superstar and in my mind he still hasn't been topped. This book is a supremely entertaining, mind expanding and FAIR mediation on science and belief from one of our generations greatest thinkers.

Hope this helps (cause reading mormon history books if she isn't ready sure as hell won't)

First, I want to make you aware of affirmation.org/. Learning the stories of individual people is critical in changing hearts. Get Carol Ann Pearson's No More Goodbyes: Circling the Wagons Around Our Gay Loved Ones.

If you want to see some stories from the Community of Christ experience, look up Homosexual Saints: The Community of Christ Experience and Touched by Grace: LGBT Stories in Community of Christ.

Our prophet brought this message to the church (section 163)

> 3 b. Above all else, strive to be faithful to Christ's vision of the peaceable Kingdom of God on earth. Courageously challenge cultural, political, and religious trends that are contrary to the reconciling and restoring purposes of God. Pursue peace.

> c. There are subtle, yet powerful, influences in the world, some even claiming to represent Christ, that seek to divide people and nations to accomplish their destructive aims. That which seeks to harden one human heart against another by constructing walls of fear and prejudice is not of God. Be especially alert to these influences, lest they divide you or divert you from the mission to which you are called.

>7c. It is not pleasing to God when any passage of scripture is used to diminish or oppress races, genders, or classes of human beings. Much physical and emotional violence has been done to some of God's beloved children through the misuse of scripture. The church is called to confess and repent of such attitudes and practices.

Some here will disagree, yet I think your cause is a noble one.

My suggestion would be to keep encouraging her to be a freethinker, question everything, and learn all she can about science. If she can be at a point where she understands that "science is more than a body of knowledge, it is a way of thinking" (Carl Sagan), if she can fall in love with the wonders of the creation of the universe and the evolution of life on this world, then you'll be done, as those things will show any thinking person the absurdity of religion as a moral compass.

If she likes to read, here are some books you might consider getting for her:

• The Demon-Haunted World by Carl Sagan. An amazing argument for the use the scientific way of thinking in every aspect of our lives.
  
  
• A Universe from Nothing by Lawrence Krauss. How math and science can fully explain the creation of the universe, and a powerful argument against the universe needing a creator.
  
  
• The Greatest Show on Earth by Richard Dawkins. The subtitle is The Evidence for Evolution. Meant as a book for readers your sister's age. Big plus is that if she likes it, she may want to read The God Delusion and/or The Magic of Reality.
  
  Edit: grammar

Verse 16 is a little odd. It says that the Sun and Moon are affixed to the solid dome of the sky (which also holds back the waters of the primeval ocean). And then it says "and the stars too". It's almost like the author was thinking "I better say something about the stars, but I'm not really sure what they are. I'll just casually toss them into this sentence and hope someone else can figure out where they should go."

And yes - verse 26 is a reference to the ancient Canaanite pantheon. This is especially clear when you compare Genesis 1 to the other Mesopotamian creation myths, especially the Babylonian Enuma Elish. When the text says "let us make man" is is a reference to the sons and daughters of El, the father of the gods. Note that verse 26 specifically says "in the image of the gods, male and female".

This is a really good book on the origin of the Old Testament. It totally changed my view of the Bible. Reading the OT now is actually quite fun, because it is so easy to see how the various sources were stitched together over the centuries.

Couple things here.

You're describing the same idea as what John W. Loftus called the Outsider Test for Faith: “Test your beliefs as if you were an outsider to the faith you are evaluating."

Your former missionary companion seems to be applying Pascal's Wager to Mormonism, without realizing that if Pascal was right to propose this, that means Mormonism had to be false (since Pascal was a Christian, which is at odds with Mormonism). But Pascal was wrong.

Pascal's Wager fails to tell us which God is the right one, and it certainly does not tell us how to please this Being. For all he knows, God gave man reason and then hid Himself from man to test them to see if they would use the reason God gave them to conclude God doesn't exist, thus freeing mankind to develop moral frameworks based in reason, which would please this God. So in this scenario God would reward atheists and punish theists for their rejection of God's gift of reason in favor of faith. Another scenario is that the true God is not known to anyone on Earth and whenever people worship another God it just makes the true God angrier and angrier.

There's also the minor point that if God requires belief then the person using Pascal's Wager isn't providing a genuine faith, but is trying to game the system to cover their own ass "just in case." I doubt God, if such a being existed, would take kindly to this approach since people are trying to use a false faith to trick God into rewarding them for their feigned commitment.

Plus, there is a real downside. Sure, we will all eventually become worm food but between now and then we can either be prisoners to a false religion or live free to achieve our best life. So wasting the one life you've got for a what-if religion is not a costless gamble.

I don't think there are many "one-line slams" that wouldn't draw attention. Focus on teaching your kids critical thinking, and be a kind, loving parent. IDK the situation with your spouse, but if you can, be honest (and respectful) when your kids ask what you believe. Show them that you and spouse can have different beliefs and still love each other.

Depending on their ages, the [Illustrated Book of Bad Arguments] (https://www.amazon.com/Illustrated-Book-Bad-Arguments/dp/1615192255/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1541178668&sr=8-1&keywords=illustrated+book+of+bad+arguments) could be a fun way to help them recognize logical fallacies. It's not directly about the church, but that helps keep your efforts under-the-radar, and the concepts can help them in many areas of life.

Thanks for mentioning us pre-internet pioneers of exmo-ness.

I left in late 1995. Made the mistake of reading Richard S. Van Wagoner's "Mormon Polygamy: A History"

I felt so guilty for reading that book. But, I just couldn't put it down. It was the first time I felt like someone was giving me a real picture of Joseph Smith the man, not the myth. Decided I needed to balance out what I was getting in Van Wagoner's book with something more "church approved." Went to Deseret Book. Asked the girl working if they had anything on polygamy. She said she thought they had one book- they did. It was the book I was already reading.

That was the moment I took the red pill. There was no turning back and the floodgates were opened. I then read:

• No Man Knows My History
  
• Quest For The Gold Plates
  
• By His Own Hand Upon Papyrus
  
• Salamander: The Story of the Mormon Forgery Murders
  
• Secret Ceremonies
  
• Where Does It Say That?
  
  And then I started checking out copies of Sunstone and Dialogue.
  
  I started checking out some of the articles at Utah Lighthouse Ministries and made one trip to their book store, but I was already becoming an atheist and I didn't really like how they weren't just trying to debunk Mormonism but also trying to sell born again xianity.
  
  By November of 1996 I was already attending a Unitarian Universalist congregation and also pretty much an athiest at that point.
  
  When stuff like MormonThink came along, I was already pretty much post-Mormon. And, when I discovered r/exmormon, I was suddenly surprised at how much I liked watching what was happening here.
  
  I'm always surprised at the announcements people make about being done with this place. But, then I found it when I was already over all the emotional rage at having been deceived. I think I just like watching the train wreck at this point. People's posts here really give me the sense that Mormonism is imploding at a rate faster than this stodgy institution is prepared to deal with- makes me happy.

I wanted to second /u/lmontr33 's reply.

> Oh, I thought I felt "the Spirit" on several occasions as a youth and a little as an adult. It was usually a tingling in the spine or a warm fuzzy blanket feeling. But I also got the spine-tingling and warm fuzzies watching dramatic secular fictional movies. Reading secular fictional books. Listening to secular music with a good bass beat. There was no difference between feelings in religious settings and feelings in secular settings. Absolutely identical. This alone was not a deal breaker, but I also met people on my mission with stalwart testimonies of their Pentecostal church. I observed the Islamic terrorists on 9/11 with such strong testimonies that they were willing to not only die, but also to kill for their God.

I also felt "the Spirit" when I was a member. I come from a polygamous ancestor who was one of Brigham's apostles. I was baptized at 8 and all the rest. I felt the "tingly tummy" sitting in the old Tabernacle during General Conference and listening to Hinckley speak about new temples being built. I wept with spiritual joy thinking about all of HF's children I might share the gospel with as my plane was landing in Portland, OR to start my mission. I had a testimony and knew the church was true...until my curious nature uncovered a hidden history of the church that prompted me to apply an Outsider's Test of Faith.

I soon stopped partitioning the feelings of "the Spirit" apart and separate from the feelings I felt while watching R-rated films like Philadelphia or Good Will Hunting. How could "the Spirit" prompt me through both an R-rated film about a gay man dying of AIDS and General Conference? The feeling I interpreted as Christ's gospel touching my soul was the same. Does Satan feel the same as the Spirit? Is the only difference context?

If anything my "testimony" led me out of the church. I couldn't deny that the church had lied about it's past. Truth is more important than how I feel about something.

The church uses its trademarked HeartSell^TM to conjure up feelings of "the Spirit". Relying on feelings to tell you the truth of something is to be led by emotional manipulators.

Oh god yes. I confessed all the time. I went on my mission without a whole lot of conviction but during it did my best to obey so I could be worthy of the spirit and a testimony. Boy, was this a perfect recipe for psychological distress. I constantly wondered whether my thoughts were prompting from the spirit or not and I always wondered why I wasn't getting the testimony and burning conviction I'd been promised. "Well, better step it up," I'd think. Probably because I spent 45 minutes instead of 30 minutes writing email. Probably because I thought sexual thoughts. Probably because I had Josh Groban on my iPod. And later, probably because I have an iPod. I kept stepping it up. I wanted so bad to be worthy of god's prompting and dod everything I could to merit it. When I didn't measure up to these unrealistically high expectations, I would step it up. I was ALWAYS confessing and whenever I felt a huge wave of relief, I would think it was the spirit. Nope. Just OCD. I would "sin" like maybe seeing something scandalous on late-nite TV that was sexually arousing. But I wouldn't feel guilty about it, true contrition. So I took seriously D&C " 42 Behold, he who has repented of his sins, the same is forgiven, and I, the Lord, remember them no more.
43 By this ye may know if a man repenteth of his sins—behold, he will confess them and forsake them." So I would confess in order to create embarrassment, shame and guilt so that I could feel godly sorry and truly repent of my seems because after all "...our words will condemn us, yea, all our works will condemn us; we shall not be found spotless; and our thoughts will also condemn us; and in this awful state we shall not dare to look up to our God; and we would fain be glad if we could command the rocks and the mountains to fall upon us to hide us from his presence." (Alma 12:14)

OCD/Scrupulosity can be a real bitch but it is possible to overcome.of this, I testify (without hesitation). : ) It will take work. Expect to do a lot of reading. In addition to these books below, I recommend finding a therapist.

Learning about mindfulness really helped. I recommend this book: https://www.amazon.com/Mindfulness-Eight-Week-Finding-Peace-Frantic-ebook/dp/B005NJ2T1G.

I also recommend this: http://www.amazon.com/Wherever-You-Go-There-Are/dp/1401307787.

This: http://www.amazon.com/You-Are-Not-Your-Brain/dp/1583334831

This: http://www.amazon.com/Leaving-Fold-Marlene-Winell/dp/1933993235

And this one:http://www.amazon.com/Healing-Shame-Binds-Recovery-Classics/dp/0757303234

That Mormon Stories podcast really helped me. I think there's a few of them. It put a name to something I'd just thought was normal. I just remember thinking "That's me!" If only someone had had the wherewithal to say "Young man, all this confessing isn't ok. Let's get you some help." I was consumed by guilt and shame all the time, never measuring up. So I'd step it up. The idea of "worthiness" was incredibly harmful to me. We are all worthy of love, of respect, and acceptance.

I also struggled with assertiveness so for what it's worth here's a discussion and some book recommendations and a discussion from last week.

Recovery is possible. I have completely gotten over all that guilt. I learned o get over that nagging guilty feeling or even that feeling like "oh shit! I left the stove on". I've had so many of those. But now I don't. I just started ignoring them. "Fuck it. Let my house burn down." What I once thought was the spirit, I now know was just my brain. Now I don't feel that. My brain has rewires so that those feelings don't come up anymore. And now I have done everything I always feared and "far worse"--I've had sex outside marriage (I was never married) and so broke my "covenants" from the temple, I've smoked weed, drank (though I don't anymore). No guilt, no shame. I'm not saying you need to do those things to get better, I'm just saying that if you'd known me a decade ago, you'd have not believed I would have ever done anything so "wicked".

My point is there's nothing objective about that guilt and shame we felt. It's only because it was instilled in us from an early age. It's a learned response and can be unlearned. We just took the Church and its truth claims and hell and punishment seriously.

Best to you. Feel free to PM me any time. Know that there's hope.

First off, welcome! I'm glad you're here. But I'm sorry for what you're going through right now, and for the loss of your parent. What a hard situation. I'm not exactly sure what to say for each of your three points (except I totally agree with you on the 3rd - those thoughts pop into my head too). But I just suggested these two books for someone else on here, and I'm going to recommend them to you too. They were both helpful to me in sorting out what I was feeling, and why. Good luck!

• [Leaving the Fold] (http://www.amazon.com/Leaving-Fold-Marlene-Winell/dp/1933993235/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1464644226&sr=8-1&keywords=leaving+the+fold), by Marlene Winell.
  
  
• [Recovering Agency] (http://www.amazon.com/Recovering-Agency-Lifting-Mormon-Control/dp/1489595937/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1464644338&sr=8-1&keywords=recovering+agency), by Luna Lindsey.

>When it comes to gay issues, most Mormons have only the muddiest understanding of what life is like for gay people or about the doctrinal reasons their LDS leaders say and do the things they do. In fact, most Mormons have only the muddiest understanding about what their church leaders are really saying about homosexuality. The message of understanding and compassion has not trickled down. And this is dangerous, because most LDS children who grow up to be gay are born and raised in families that feel they must choose between accepting and supporting their child and staying with the church that defines their lives.


This is why EVERY member of the LDS church needs to read Carol Lynn Pearson's books, Goodbye I Love You and No More Goodbyes. These are books which are written by a faithful mormon, to other faithful mormons, so they can be received without challenging a mormon too hard or offending them too deeply. But they also are the perfect education on what homosexuality really is. The first book is the story of her homosexual husband and their failed and tragic marriage. The second book is all the stories of homosexual people who have come to her and told her their story since the first book was published. You can't read these books without leaving ignorance and prejudice behind. It should be required reading for every single church member.

In fact...any of you who has a mormon on your christmas giving list, I would HIGHLY suggest giving these books for christmas.

If you find you like reading Dawkins ... and you're curious to read some awesome layman biology I would also recommend "The Greatest Show on Earth: The Evidence for Evolution" - Richard Dawkins.

It is mind blowing. I had no idea how really developed and nuanced the evidences for biological evolution are. And how misunderstood it is by the general public. Great book!

Go read "This is My Doctrine: The Development of Mormon Theology" by Charles R. Harrell. It is the best topical summary of the evolution of LDS doctrine available, written by a believing but uncorrelated BYU Engineering professor.

If you're interested in the changing claims about God that developed in Joseph's lifetime, I wrote a few blog posts documenting my findings and resources:

Darwinian Deity: The Evolution of the Mormon Concept of God – Part I

Darwinian Deity: The Evolution of the Mormon Concept of God – Part II

Darwinian Deity: The Evolution of the Mormon Concept of God – Part III

On the topic of religion in general, which is important to understanding Mormonism as much as any other religion, a few books would help:

The Outsider Test for Faith - John Loftus

What You Don't Know About Religion (but should) - Ryan Cragun
(he is an exmormon, and this adds to the interest for those of Mormon background)

The Varieties of Religious Experience - William James
(a classic)

I also have a somewhat short summary where I examine the claims of the Church:

Examining Church Claims

Good luck!

I've been seeing a therapist in Orem for the past three years. I've managed to get a pretty good handle on it all. I was constantly afraid of getting into trouble at work or at home. I would use google to check laws all the time, seek out reassurance from co-workers and family, only to land myself back at square one. Looking back on my life, it's always been there though, it just came to a head three years ago. I can vividly remember being told , as a teen, that masturbation could lead to homosexuality, it was murder, and one could possibly contract STD's (AIDS mainly) present on your hands. Freaked me the fuck out. I remember finding a 1-800 number for an AIDS hotline and asking them if I could contract AIDS through masturbation. They of course said no, but I must have called them back 20 times that week to "check." I also remember once being told that I would no longer be sealed to my family if I sinned too much. Being an only child, I, of course, felt like that if I fucked up too much, I would no longer be with my parents for eternity, and how much it would break my moms heart. So, the hyper-responsibility and scrupe kicked in.

You are far from alone. My therapist indicated that he's seeing more and more people of my demographic being treated for OCD revolving around perfectionism and scrupulosity, who are also current and former members of the church.

If you haven't already, please get help. If you are unable to, please use these resources. I am not being hyperbolic when I say they saved my life:

Amazing workbook that covers all major themes of OCD: https://www.amazon.com/Mindfulness-Workbook-OCD-Overcoming-Compulsions/dp/1608828786/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1506268535&sr=8-2&keywords=workbook+for+ocd

Companion book that I bought my wife to help me deal with the hell I was going through: https://www.amazon.com/When-Family-Member-Has-Obsessive-Compulsive/dp/1626252467/ref=pd_sim_14_3?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=708TGTKDB2JFQ982YMFY

To help manage depression. Absolutely brilliant. https://www.amazon.com/Happiness-Trap-Struggling-Start-Living/dp/1590305841/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1506268610&sr=1-1&keywords=happiness+trap

Also, are you currently in Utah County?

Yes, I'm aware of Steven Shields, he's pretty cool. He also did the intro to the excellent Scattering Of The Saints.

What I like about stoicism is that it is the philosophical basis for a number of evidence-based psychological therapies that go under the general rubric of cognitive behavioral therapy (C.B.T.).

This New York Times article provides a broad overview of modern stoicism.

https://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/02/02/how-to-be-a-stoic/

I thought this book was pretty good if you're interested in a more in depth explanation of stoicism.

https://www.amazon.com/Guide-Good-Life-Ancient-Stoic/dp/0195374614/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1493200369&sr=8-1&keywords=the+guide+to+the+good+life

My initial thoughts:

• [No Man Knows My History] (https://www.amazon.com/No-Man-Knows-My-History/dp/0679730540/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1502508499&sr=8-1&keywords=no+man+knows+my+history), by Fawn M. Brodie
  
  
• [An Insider's View of Mormon Origins] (https://www.amazon.com/Insiders-View-Mormon-Origins/dp/1560851570/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1502508636&sr=1-1&keywords=an+insider%27s+view+of+mormon+origins), by Grant Palmer
  
  
• [Mormon Polygamy: a history] (https://www.amazon.com/Mormon-Polygamy-Richard-Van-Wagoner/dp/0941214796/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1502508741&sr=1-1&keywords=mormon+polygamy), by Richard S. Von Wagoner
  
  
• [The Mountain Meadows Massacre] (https://www.amazon.com/Mountain-Meadows-Massacre-Juanita-Brooks/dp/0806123184/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1502508843&sr=1-1&keywords=mountain+meadows+massacre+juanita+brooks), by Juanita Brooks
  
  
• [A Gathering of Saints] (https://www.amazon.com/Gathering-Saints-Story-Murder-Deceit/dp/0671651129/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1502508882&sr=1-1&keywords=a+gathering+of+saints), by Robert Lindsey
  
  See if any of those pique your interest. I found them all to be fair, with little bias. Happy studying!

Somewhat unrelated, but have you read Charles Harrell's "This is My Doctrine: The Development of Mormon Theology"? It's written by a believing (but nuanced) professor at BYU and reviews the historical developments of mormon doctrine from OT to NT to BOM and early church to modern church. It's pretty fascinating.

I'm so sorry. It makes it even more sad when their "proof" is just delusion. Anyone can be deluded into believing the most unbelievable things, these people believed they were getting communications from outer space from "Sandana", and that a flood was coming, but it never did . . . yet, they still believed, and they conveniently believed it was their "devotion" that saved the planet from a major flood. Cognitive dissonance, HOORAY!

Here are a few I can recommend:

The Untethered Soul: The Journey Beyond Yourself

http://www.amazon.com/Untethered-Soul-Journey-Beyond-Yourself/dp/1572245379/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1418415604&sr=1-1&keywords=the+untethered+soul

A Guide to the Good Life: The Ancient Art of Stoic Joy

http://www.amazon.com/Guide-Good-Life-Ancient-Stoic/dp/0195374614/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1418415543&sr=1-1&keywords=stoicism

Mindfulness in Plain English

http://www.amazon.com/Mindfulness-Plain-English-20th-Anniversary/dp/0861719069/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1418415648&sr=1-1&keywords=mindfulness+is+plain+english

A question you seriously need to ask her (and yourself) is if she is okay being in a mixed faith marriage. It is likely she is banking on you feeling the spirit eventually and getting baptized, and providing her the opportunity for a temple marriage.

Something I believe isn’t spoken about often enough on this forum is the concept of mind control, and the undue influence the church has on its members. If you seriously want to make things work with her, please look into the BITE model of mind control and/or read some of Steven Hassan’s books his updated version of his old book is great

This is the first post I’ve read of yours, but to be honest there are a LOT of red flags and alarm bells ringing right now.

If you are willing to speak with her bishop, ask if she is willing to read the information on LDS.org in the gospel topic essays. And further the CES letter

It’s likely that she is unable to objectively look at the truth claims of the church due to control over her mind. Maybe research the BITE model with her, get her to investigate it herself.

I love Scattering of the Saints which was a great book to take a few months to read as each chapter was about a particular schism and there tended to be some overlap and repetition. Thanks for reminding me of it; haven't read it for a while.

Are you talking about Dawkins or the FreeThought blogger? Read The Greatest Show on Earth, it has plenty of science and clear thinking.

You are welcome!

And yes! Book is out in English!

https://www.amazon.com/dp/1722885750

I don't know of any AA type groups, but I know there are meet up groups in various places, especially Utah.

Also, the psychologist who coined the term Religious Trauma Syndrome came up with this workbook to help people with the transition: Leaving the Fold: A Guide for Former Fundamentalists and Others Leaving Their Religion https://www.amazon.com/dp/1933993235/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_rQ5HDbTQVQ4X2

I'm considering giving it a shot. Maybe it could help you?

The Swedish rescue information can be found on mormon think. There is also very good information on this in Hans Mattsson's new book.

Don't know how old your kids are. Maybe try these?

• [Illustrated Book of Bad Arguments] (https://www.amazon.com/Illustrated-Book-Bad-Arguments/dp/1615192255/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1504731008&sr=8-1&keywords=illustrated+book+of+bad+arguments) to help them recognize faulty reasoning.
  
  
• [Science Mom video] (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPvo7DkrFjo). This episode is actually about the color of blood (which is actually interesting on its own), but it does a great job explaining confirmation bias in a way kids can understand.

I highly recommend educating yourself before delving into this territory. Brainwashing isn't what you think it is. This is an excellent book. Highly worth reading in it's entirety before you confront your wife

Combating Cult Mind Control: The #1 Best-selling Guide to Protection, Rescue, and Recovery from Destructive Cults https://www.amazon.com/dp/0967068827/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_OKqwDb7CD69GR

If you can find it in their archive, the History Channel did a very good documentary on it. I would recommend you watch it.

This book, "Blood Of The Prophets," was written by the dean of the history department at the U. of U., and it is probably the definitive history of it.

https://www.amazon.com/Blood-Prophets-Brigham-Massacre-Mountain/dp/0806136391/ref=sr_1_3?Adv-Srch-Books-Submit.x=0&Adv-Srch-Books-Submit.y=0&qid=1562545185&refinements=p_27%3AWill+Bagley&s=books&sr=1-3&unfiltered=1

Right before I left the church, I was Gospel Doctrine teacher. It was my favorite calling. I loved teaching.

Not sure what I can add to the list of pharisaical things Mormons do, but I will throw this out there if you're teaching about the OT. I just got finished reading "Who Wrote the Bible?", and it was very enlightening. Helped the OT make more sense: the short version (which I hadn't gotten from other sources) is that the Torah was a compilation of two different sources, one pro-Judah and one pro-Israel that got written after Israel was divided after Solomon died. They cut and pasted each story side by side. The compilation likely happened after the Babylonian Exile, which would have been after Lehi btw.

Oh wait, if you're in UT, you could mention the on one hand anal way people drive (never let people in because they should have seen the yellow line) combined with utter social cluelessness (I know I'm where I'm supposed to be, so even if I'm doing 50 in the fast lane, not my problem).

You pretty much came to the outsider test for faith on your own. Well done!

There is a huge amount of mythology about the pioneers.

Most of the people that crossed the plains to Utah slept in a bunk car and ate in a dining car. Their train was not a train of wagons and the horse that drew their train ate wood and coal, not oats and grass.

But thousands did come in wagon trains, and 95% of those wagon trains didn't have difficulty. The reality is that most of the pioneers to cross the plains did so with relative ease and few casualties.

A large number of them traveled east, not west. They sailed to San Fransisco and then came across California and Nevada to Utah.

The ones that did have problems were mostly due to stupidity, and most of the stories you hear about those are exaggerated. In saying that, I don't want to minimize the hardship some of them faced, but the true story is significantly different from the myth, especially with regards to the Martin and Willey handcart companies.

Start here: http://archive.sltrib.com/article.php?id=58216230&itype=cmsid

If you want to dig deeper then read this: https://www.amazon.com/Devils-Gate-Brigham-Handcart-Tragedy/dp/1416539891/

If you really want to go down a rabbit hole, google Brigham Young's steam engine, and you'll learn the so called "rescue" of 1856 was more about getting Briggy's engine and tobacco to SLC than it was about saving lives.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ou47dupzoys

This is a better starting point than Armstrong. It helps that it's a million times more readable: http://www.amazon.com/Wrote-Bible-Richard-Elliott-Friedman/dp/0060630353/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1377833887&sr=1-1&keywords=who+wrote+the+bible+richard+elliott+friedman

Sam Harris has a book about how "Spirituality" is not a term that needs to be associated with religion or any metaphysical or supernatural claims about the cosmos. It's called "Waking Up" and I would highly recommend you check it out.

And beyond that...Eastern philosophy and eastern religions (minus the supernatural stuff). There are experiences of human consciousness that are available to everyone without having to resort to drugs or irrational beliefs. Tao Te Ching is a great read.

Amazon link

I finished listening to this on audible. I liked how the author sets the stage around Utah and captures the historical context of the time. Brigham young is talked about a lot but he isn't the main focus. The focus really is the people at mountain meadows. This book really shows Brigham young as a distant leader who willingly sacrifice anyone to protect himself and his theocracy.

I listened to Sam Harris' Waking Up the other day. In it he said:

Gurus fall at every point along the spectrum of moral wisdom. Charles Manson was a guru of sorts. Jesus, the Buddha, Muhammad, Joseph Smith, and every other patriarch and matriarch of the world's religions were as well. For our purpose, the only difference between a cult and a religion are the number of adherents and the degree to which they are marginalized by the rest of the society. Scientology remains a cult. Mormonism has (just barely) become a religion. Christianity has been a religion for more then a thousand years. But one searches in vain for differences in their respective doctrines that account for the difference in their status.

This was the nicer thing he said in his book. I'll also include the following quote for your amusement:

Joseph Smith...a libidinous con man and crackpot, was able to found a new religion on the claim that he had unearthed the final revelations of God in the hallowed precincts of Manchester, New York, written in "reformed Egyptian" on golden plates. He decoded this text with the aid of magical "seer stones," which whether by magic or not, allowed Smith to produce an English version of God's Word that was an embarrassing pastiche of plagiarisms from the Bible and silly lies about Jesus's life in America. And yet the resulting edifice of nonsense and taboo survives to this day.

I've been thinking of getting this book, maybe you could beat me to it. I also don't have hardly any friends though... it's hard. I do live in Utah, but not for too long hopefully.

Jesus Christ didn't exist. However he is based on an historical character or is a composite of several individuals living approximately at that time in similar geographic locations. He certainly wouldn't have been known as Jesus Christ, and many of the acts described in the bible didn't actually happen. You can think of it in similar terms as story about a guy named Dave, that is based on the story of a guy name Steve. Steve, the historical character lived in Salt Lake City and so did the mythical Dave. Both of them were described as being Rabbi's who were born in the same decade.

If you want to understand what mainstream historians believe about the historical Jesus of Nazareth I recommend this book. http://www.amazon.com/Zealot-Life-Times-Jesus-Nazareth/dp/140006922X

Edit: Essentially Jesus Christ is an idea personified in human form.

I read Mormon Polygamy: A History by Richard S. Van Wagoner. That was it for me. Once I knew the truth about this subject, the rest was like a house of cards tumbling down.

My big "wow moment" that started me on this path was when I started reading Combating Cult Mind Control. By the end of the first two chapters my jaw was on the floor. The book so accurately described my experience with the church.

Having recently finished the book Blood of the Prophets, your mother's statement makes my blood boil.

That is definitely something worth bringing up and correcting her about, even if you don't implicate Brigham Young or the church.

There is also this one, it is fascinating.

https://www.amazon.com/ZEALOT-Life-Times-Jesus-Nazareth/dp/140006922X

John Hamer addressed this during one (or more) of his podcasts. It seems like he also had a power point deck that explained some of this... as do his book on the subject.


What it really comes down to is this. The early church was divided into three leadership branches. The twelve apostles were one of those three branches. But the twelve were the group that was responsible for missionary work. Since missionary work was the life-blood of the new church, and since BY had his face all over this group, it was easy for new converts (who knew BY and the twelve) to follow the Brighamite branch West.


Mormon Stories Episode 116: John Hamer Pt. 1 — The LDS Succession Crisis of 1844 and the Beginnings of the RLDS Church


Scattering Of The Saints: Schism Within Mormonism


Search for other John Hamer podcasts and works. This guy is the expert on this subject.

I agree, I think as long as you start on the basis that the "church is true", you will cling to any vague parallel to validate the basis that the "church is true".

I'm in the middle of reading "When Prophecy Fails" by Festinger et al. and it confirms all of this. They studied a cult that believed that they were receiving messages from outer space from "Sandana", that they were going to be picked up by flying saucers, and that most of the world was going to be flooded on December 21, 1954.

Paul Krugmen did a good write up about it here relating it to predictions of the "economic collapses".

>"Back in the 1950s three social psychologists joined a cult that was predicting the imminent end of the world. Their purpose was to observe the cultists’ response when the world did not, in fact, end on schedule. What they discovered, and described in their classic book, “When Prophecy Fails,” is that the irrefutable failure of a prophecy does not cause true believers — people who have committed themselves to a belief both emotionally and by their life choices — to reconsider. On the contrary, they become even more fervent, and proselytize even harder."

Absolutely! "Devil's Gate" by David Roberts. He is a nevermo historian of the American West. It is a thoroughly detailed, readable and entertaining book, and he is completely unbiased.

https://www.amazon.com/Devils-Gate-Brigham-Handcart-Tragedy/dp/1416539891

https://www.amazon.com/This-My-Doctrine-Development-Theology/dp/1589581032

This is my doctrine is a nice set of books that show that almost every single aspect of mormon doctrine has shifted over time.

> Carol Lynn Pearson

I was going to suggest another book by her - No More Goodbyes: Circling the Wagons Around Our Gay Loved Ones

https://www.amazon.com/No-More-Goodbyes-Circling-Wagons/dp/0963885243/ref=asap_bc?ie=UTF8

It was already translated. Didn’t you know?
You can even buy it on amazon: The Sealed Portion - The Final Testament of Jesus Christ https://www.amazon.com/dp/0978526465/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_Q6cRBb0VE7GP1

Here’s the Sealed Portion of the Book of Mormon on Amazon. Everyone in your Stake can start reading it.

The Sealed Portion - The Final Testament of Jesus Christ https://www.amazon.com/dp/0978526465/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_vVVFDbSS7RQ1S

Grab a new or used version of the book "No More Goodbyes" by Carol Lyn Pearson. Read it before you come out to the family (it's a quick read) and then handed off to your parents to chew on. When I told my parents about my better half (they already knew I was gay), I handed this book to my mom and told her she wasn't invited to meet him until she read the book. In my experience, it isn't threatening for TBMs to read this book because it is written by a very well know Mormon women who made her reputation with Relief Society women in the 80's with LDS poetry. She also penned the primary song "I'll Walk With You" which was secretly about her experience with ostracized members of the LGBT community like her ex-husband.

Edit: forgot to mention that you can also buy digital copies of this book and send then to their e-readers. My mom read a physical copy but I noticed that she would hide the cover because it had the word "gay" on it. I realized that E-readers are more low key and sent it to my dad and grandparents in that format.

If you want the full story, check out Scattering Of The Saints: Schism Within Mormonism

You can see the dozens of schisms just by zooming in on the front cover.

Link to the book, and you can click reviews from there.

https://www.amazon.com/Truth-Seeking-High-Ranking-Mattsson-Eventually/dp/1722885750?crid=3LTV2OZ1CS8MM&keywords=truth+seeking&qid=1536298496&s=Books&sprefix=Truth+seeki&sr=1-1&ref=mp_s_a_1_1

Also search Mormon Stories for his interview. It's excellent, and was the first time I learned about the "second anointing", which was incredibly disturbing and a shelf-breaker for me.

While you're at it, get familiar with stoicism

The LDS leadership should ask the Marriotts to replace the Book of Mormon in the nightstand with Will Bagley's book. Just for one week every year in memoriam.

That has already happened. The Sealed Portion - The Final Testament of Jesus Christ https://www.amazon.com/dp/0978526465/ref=cm_sw_r_awd_G6cjub1X2S345

I read it in Tell it All (starting on p. 219)

But there's more here: http://www.amazon.com/Devils-Gate-Brigham-Handcart-Tragedy/dp/1416539891

http://www.historynet.com/mormon-handcart-horrors.htm

He has another that I'm reading: Waking Up: A Guide to Spirituality Without Religion

He practices meditation, neuroscientist.

http://www.amazon.com/Waking-Up-Spirituality-Without-Religion/dp/1451636016

That's a different book. He's talking about This Is My Doctrine: The Development of Mormon Theology by Charles Harrell, a BYU professor.

http://www.amazon.com/This-My-Doctrine-Development-Theology/dp/1589581032/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1369261705&sr=1-1&keywords=this+is+my+doctrine+the+development+of+mormon+theology

https://www.amazon.com/Outsider-Test-Faith-Which-Religion/dp/1616147377

>Truth Seeking

https://www.amazon.com/dp/1722885750

​

Hans Mattsson is the author.

I don't. The author has a whole book on the subject and the front cover has another schism chart with the names of the leaders instead of the sects.

http://www.amazon.com/Scattering-Of-The-Saints-Mormonism/dp/1934901024

edit: Here is the graphic from the book http://www.mvgcontact.org/graphics/MovementChart.pdf

Presumably you read "Devils Gate" by Roberts. I thought it was a really good read, not as gruesome as expected.
https://www.amazon.com/Devils-Gate-Brigham-Handcart-Tragedy/dp/1416539891/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1468531987&sr=8-1&keywords=devils+gate+david+roberts

Roberts is a never mo historian of the West, and very unbiased.

I always new BY was a pig, but not that big a pig.

Have you read:

Combating Cult Mind Control: The #1 Best-selling Guide to Protection, Rescue, and Recovery from Destructive Cults https://www.amazon.com/dp/0967068827/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_Q7x3Cb5J9XAB1

You can believe in Christ without being lds. fact over 90 percent of the people thar believe in christ are not lds.

Find some good books and explore on your own.

I really liked zealot by Reza Aslan. It's one of the few out there that is historically accurate and tries to look at the person and not the religions that formed around his legacy.

ZEALOT: The Life and Times of Jesus of Nazareth https://www.amazon.com/dp/140006922X/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_MNN1BbFYXFX6M

I also have it linked in the text portion of the Wives of Joseph Smith Infographic

References:
Marriage Details are from wivesofjosephsmith.org
Which has compiled genealogical research from the following sources:

[A] familysearch.org (The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Salt Lake City)

[B] Mormon Polygamy: A History, (Van Wagoner, Signature Books, Salt Lake City, 1989)

[C] Mormon Enigma: Emma Hale Smith, (Newell & Avery, University of Illinois Press, Urbana and Chicago, 1994)

[D] In Sacred Loneliness: The Plural Wives of Joseph Smith, (Compton, Signature Books, Salt Lake City, 1997)

[E] Doctrine and Covenants, (The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Salt Lake City)

Additional Panel References:

[1] "Utah Struggles With a Revival of Polygamy", NY Times, 8/23/1998, James Brooke

[2] Polyandry definition at wikipedia.

[3] Henry Jacobs' mission call; "Zina and Her Men", FAIR LDS Conference, 2006

[4] David Sessions mission call, wivesofjosephsmith.org, Patty Bartlett Sessions Biography

[5] Desdemona Fullmer quote, wivesofjosephsmith.org, D. Fuller Biography

*The cameo silhouettes were created by mormoninfographics for presentation purposes.

Other Resources
Black and White version of this chart for printouts, download here.
Full Rez image from above here.

This scholar argues Jesus was a purely mythical character (like Zeus or Osiris) who was later placed in a historical context decades after the fact: https://www.secularhumanism.org/index.php/articles/5656

On the other hand, this other scholar argues for the historicity of Jesus (that he actually was a person), and postulates what the real Jesus actually taught (VERY different from the modern Christian message!) http://www.amazon.com/Zealot-Life-Times-Jesus-Nazareth/dp/140006922X

Scholarship right now seems to be split between these two camps.

Helen Mar's marriage was sexual

"I would never have been sealed to Joseph had I known it was anything more than ceremony. I was young, and they deceived me, by saying the salvation of our whole family depended on it." - Helen Mar.

Source: Mormon Polygamy: A History by LDS member Richard S. Van Wagoner, p. 53.)

Sam Harris.

Lying: http://amzn.com/B00G1SRB6Q (on sale on Audible for only 3.61)

Waking Up: http://amzn.com/1451636016

The LDS Church will never go away. It will probably decline and become a minor religion (if it hasn't always been one), and the remainders will be the hard-core zealots who pass the religion along through their families. Property will be sold, doctrines will be changed and adapted, and the failures will be re-interpreted as triumphs (lots of talk of "wheat" and "chaff").

Read the book "When Prophecy Fails", which discusses the observed psychology of a 1950s UFO cult and how the cult members deal with failure, to see it in a microcosm:

When Prophecy Fails

I've been out for 8 years now and I'm still struggling too, mainly because I have nobody to talk to about it either. There are no meetups near me, no therapists in my area who have ever heard of religious trauma syndrome.
The book Leaving the Fold has some really really good worksheets that helped me process things. https://www.amazon.com/Leaving-Fold-Former-Fundamentalists-Religion/dp/1933993235

Best book on the subject I've ever read, from a historian: http://smile.amazon.com/Devils-Gate-Brigham-Handcart-Tragedy/dp/1416539891/

No other source made me feel like I really understood the tragedy. And frankly, no other book every made me hate BY quite so much.

I started with this illustrated book of bad arguments from Amazon. http://amzn.com/1615192255

I just let them read it and give them real life examples on the way to school. My wife rolled her eyes hard and laughed the first time our son told me my goofy comment was a poorly formed argument and illogical. Kids are smart as hell, they just need to be cut loose. I also used a book called raising freethinkers for ideas.

From the FB post

..

September 11th marks the anniversary of the Mountain Meadows Massacre. A five day siege that culminated in the slaughter of some 120 California-bound immigrants in 1857, at the hands of Mormon militiamen (reinstated Nauvoo Legion) from Parowan, Utah.

A month before the emigrants departed Arkansas on their journey west, Parley P. Pratt (LDS Apostle) was shot and stabbed by an estranged husband of his twelfth plural wife in the same state. Additionally there was war hysteria about a possible invasion into the Mormon territory by the U.S. government, placing the population on edge.

The wagon train of emigrants were bound for California on a route that passed through the Utah Territory. After arriving in Salt Lake, the Baker-Fancher party made their way south, eventually stopping to rest at Mountain Meadows. While camping at the meadow, nearby Mormon militia leaders, including Isaac C. Haight (LDS Stake President) and John D. Lee (adopted son, sealed to Brigham Young), joined forces to organize an attack on the wagon train.

Intending to give the appearance of Native American aggression, the militia’s plan was to arm some Southern Paiutes and persuade them to join with a larger party of their own militiamen—disguised as Native Americans—in an attack. During the militia's first assault on the wagon train the emigrants fought back, and a five-day siege ensued. Eventually fear spread among the militia's leaders that some emigrants had caught sight of white men and had likely discovered the identity of their attackers. As a result militia commander William H. Dame ordered his forces to kill the emigrants.

By this time the emigrants were running low on water and provisions, and allowed some approaching members of the militia—who carried a white flag—to enter their camp. John D. Lee, then local Indian agent, told them the Indians had gone, and if the Arkansans would lay down their arms, he and his men would escort them to safety. They were separated into three groups—the wounded and youngest children, who led the way in two wagons; the women and older children, who walked behind; and then the men, each escorted by an armed member of the militia.

Lee led his charges three-quarters of a mile from the campground to a southern branch of the California Trail. As they approached the rim of the Great Basin, a single shot rang out, followed by an order: "Do your duty!" The escorts turned and shot down the men, painted "Indians" jumped out of oak brush and cut down the women and children, and Lee directed the murder of the wounded.

Following the massacre, the perpetrators hastily buried the victims, leaving the bodies vulnerable to wild animals and the climate. Local families took in the surviving 17 children (all under 8 years of age), and many of the victims' possessions were auctioned off.

Initially, the LDS Church denied any involvement by Mormons, and was relatively silent on the issue. Though an early investigation was conducted by Brigham Young, who interviewed John D. Lee on September 29th, 1857. Young sent a report to the Commissioner of Indian Affairs stating the massacre was the work of Native Americans. The Utah War delayed any investigation by the U.S. government until 1859, when Jacob Forney and Major James Henry Carleton conducted investigations. In Carleton's investigation, at Mountain Meadows he found women's hair tangled in sage brush and the bones of children still in their mothers' arms. Carleton later said it was "a sight which can never be forgotten." After gathering up the skulls and bones of those who had died, Carleton's troops buried them and erected a cairn and cross with the inscription “Vengeance is mine, I will repay saith the Lord.”

During a tour of southern Utah, Brigham Young along with some 60 other Saints, visited the massacre site in May 1861. After viewing the inscription on the cross, Wilford Woodruff recorded President Young as saying “it should be vengeance is mine and I have taken a little.” The cross was then torn down and the rocks of the cairn were dismantled, leaving little of the original marker.

Captain James Lynch, who visited the site of the massacre in 1859, recorded his impressions:

"The scene of the fearful murder still bears evidence of the atrocious crime, charged by the Mormons and their friends to have been perpetrated by Indians but really by mormons disguised as Indians, who in their headlong zeal, bigotry and fanaticism deemed this a favorable opportunity of at once wreaking their vengeance on the hated people of Arkansas, and of making another of these iniquitious “Blood offerings” to God so often recommended by Brigham Young and their other leaders. For more than two square miles the ground is strewn with the skulls, bones and other remains of the victims. In places water has washed many of these remains together, forming little mounds, raising monuments as it were to the cruelty of man to his fellow man. Here and there may be found the remains of an innocent infant beside those of some devoted mother, ruthlessly slain by men worse than demons; their bones lie bleaching in the noon day sun a mute but eloquent appeal to a just but offended God for vengeance. I have witnessed many harrowing sights on the fields of battle, but never did my heart thrill with such horrible emotions, as when standing on that silent plain contemplating the remains of the innocent victims of Mormon Avarice, fanaticism & cruelty.”

"Blood offerings” perhaps referencing the early mormon teaching of blood atonement that some crimes are so heinous that the atonement of Christ does not apply. Instead, to atone for these sins perpetrators should be killed in a way that would allow their blood to be shed upon the ground as a sacrificial offering.

Brigham Young taught that a person who "has committed a sin that he knows will deprive him of that exaltation which he desires, and that he cannot attain to it without the shedding of his blood, and also knows that by having his blood shed he will atone for that sin, and be saved and exalted with the Gods, is there a man or woman in this house but what would say, 'shed my blood that I may be saved and exalted with the Gods?' All mankind love themselves, and let these principles be known by an individual, and he would be glad to have his blood shed. That would be loving themselves, even unto an eternal exaltation. Will you love your brothers or sisters likewise, when they have committed a sin that cannot be atoned for without the shedding of their blood? Will you love that man or woman well enough to shed their blood? That is what Jesus Christ meant." - Journal of Discourses, vol.4, pp. 215–21.

Out of all the men involved only John D. Lee was tried in a court of law. He was executed by firing squad on March 23, 1877, nearly twenty years after the massacre.

There is a general consensus among historians that Brigham Young played a role in provoking the massacre, at least unwittingly, and in concealing evidence after the fact. He used inflammatory and violent language preceding the attack—even inserting an Oath of Vengeance into the LDS Temple endowment ceremony where initiates "covenant and promise that you will pray and never cease to pray to Almighty God to avenge the blood of the prophets [Joseph and Hyrum] upon this nation, and that you will teach the same to your children and to your children's children unto the third and fourth generation."

John D. Lee cited this oath in his confession shortly before his execution:
"I believed then as I do now, that it was the will of every true Mormon in Utah, at that time, that the enemies of the Church should be killed as fast as possible, and that as this lot of people had men amongst them that were supposed to have helped kill the Prophets in the Carthage jail, the killing of all of them would be keeping our oaths and avenging the blood of the Prophets.”

The direct culpability of Brigham Young is still hotly debated among historians.

...

This one was tough. It was a bit hastily cobbled together with quite a bit of plagiarism (eh, it's a FB post). The topic was a new one to me. One I knew very little about until a short time ago. A topic that is both relevant, tragic and interesting. This post just begins to scratch the surface. I recommend reading some of the links below and checking out Lindsay's podcast on the topic.

If you have any additional information or insights, leave them in the comments.

….

Crash Course:
Blood Atonement - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_atonement
Oath of Vengeance - http://www.mormonthink.com/glossary/oath-of-vengeance.htm
Mountain Meadows massacre - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain_Meadows_massacre
Year in Polygamy, Mountain Meadows massacre (podcast) - http://www.yearofpolygamy.com/tag/mountain-meadows-massacre/
Peace and Violence among 19th-Century Latter-day Saints, LDS Gospel Topic Essay - https://www.lds.org/topics/peace-and-violence-among-19th-century-latter-day-saints?lang=eng
Mountain Meadows Massacre - http://www.historynet.com/mountain-meadows-massacre
Last confession and statement of John D. Lee - http://www.mtn-meadows-assoc.com/jdlconfession.htm
Affidavit of Jame Lynch - https://www.mtn-meadows-assoc.com/james_lynch.htm
Blood of the prophets : Brigham Young and the massacre at Mountain Meadows (book) - https://www.amazon.com/Blood-Prophets-Brigham-Massacre-Mountain/dp/0806136391