Reddit Reddit reviews Kill All Normies: Online Culture Wars From 4Chan And Tumblr To Trump And The Alt-Right

We found 24 Reddit comments about Kill All Normies: Online Culture Wars From 4Chan And Tumblr To Trump And The Alt-Right. Here are the top ones, ranked by their Reddit score.

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Kill All Normies: Online Culture Wars From 4Chan And Tumblr To Trump And The Alt-Right
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24 Reddit comments about Kill All Normies: Online Culture Wars From 4Chan And Tumblr To Trump And The Alt-Right:

u/BarnabyCajones · 37 pointsr/slatestarcodex

A couple of disjointed observations:

  1. Activists, pundits, and leaders who have been antagonistic to racism as a kind of social sin and political problem have often, I think, been content to propagate a very simple, cartoonish vision of "RACISM" in many circumstances, for the sake of mobilizing supporters. The reality is not many people actually ever looked like Bull Conner even in the sixties, even if they harbored racial animus. Some did, but that's not mainly how it played out. But one consequence of that is that when actual ideologies that should be called racist or racialist or what have you are encountered out in the wild, it's often hard to know what the hell it even is that you're looking at. The ideas have been shunned and disengaged with so long that they're just unfamiliar.

  2. There are some ways in which the totalizing quasi-religion / ideology that says "social sin of the -ism varieties are incredibly special and much, much worse than normal human failings" brings a bunch of exasperating baggage with it.

    On the one hand, it forces a lot of arguments into binary boundary policing of a discrete term, in a very lawyerly fashion, instead of keeping arguments focused organically on easier values judgments.

    So respectable press and activist organizations loudly say David Duke is a racist. David Duke and his fellow travelers loudly say they aren't. Different people trot out different definitions of racist. Etc etc etc. I'll concede that if you come from a moral tradition anchored in the view that "social sin" is the primary moral problem in the world, then I guess you have to keep the conversation at that level. But if you don't, it seems much easier to look at Duke organically, as a polarizing, divisive, uncharitable, not-very-nice person, and make your value judgments from there. Unless you come from that social sin moral tradition, it's not clear to me what is gained by forcing the conversation to be crammed back into that one definition question. I think Scott's "You are still crying wolf" has some of this flavor.

    So that seems like one major issue to me with this lens.

    A second issue, which I think is actually its own huge problem, is that when people elevate social sins of the -ism varieties to an incredibly special level, much higher than normal human failings, they often end up downplaying way, way too much, I think, problems of personal moral failings, especially of people they have solidarity with (or even themselves), and underestimate how much damage that does, both to the legitimacy of their movements in the eyes of people who don't already agree with them, and to their own day-to-day functioning with their allies.

    I get the strong impression that one of the reasons there is so much aggressive reactionary backlash to a lot of Social Justice activism is that, to many, many people, a lot of loud Social Justice pundits and activists come across as kind of morally shitty people in their personal lives - vain, arrogant, uncharitable, selfish, striving, insecure, entitled, dishonest, ignorant, narcissistic, spiteful, divisive, and extremely unkind.. And as much to the point, voices of people who display those qualities do not seem to be policed or sanctioned by people in their movements who are seemingly nicer people.

    And again, if you come from a moral tradition where social sins of the -ism varieties are just utterly different in kind, and radically worse than, normal moral person failings, where you might even look at the "personal moral failings" as a kind of "bourgeois morality" and tone policing, I can see where you might feel inclined to give allies like this a pass. But I think lots of other people who don't come from those moral traditions evaluate these voices and movements more organically and often come away heavily repulsed by what they think the see.

    In admittedly extreme form, I'm thinking here of things like this Michelle Goldberg piece, or the Requires Hate story , or the Vampire Castle piece, or much of what Angela Nagle covers in Kill All Normies in her sections about the Tumblr Left. In each of these cases, there are communities focused on fighting Racism, on combating social sin, and that's what all the participants say they are dedicated to. And yet, especially if you don't come from moral traditions that elevate social sin to a sacred level, there's just a lot of almost comically awful, hurtful, certainly counterproductive behavior happening in these spaces, and being visibly given a pass by nicer-seeming people because it's all in the service of "Fighting Racism".
u/um--no · 12 pointsr/BrasildoB

No final do texto desta postagem, o autor recomenda este outro texto, muito informativo, sobre a origem dessa "nova direita" da internet, que foi, em parte, responsável pela ascenção do Bolsonaro. Trecho:

>O rancor contra a esquerda extrapolava a influência de Olavo: era possível detectá-lo no Vale Tudo e em outros fóruns da internet, como os estrangeiros Reddit e 4chan, que cada vez mais passavam a atacar sistematicamente qualquer comportamento ou ideia relacionado com a esquerda. O ressentimento, que a princípio eu supunha motivado apenas por uma noção de injustiça intelectual associada ao esquecimento de ideias e autores, era inseparável dos preconceitos que até então não percebera entre meus colegas. Nesse contexto, o que se identifica no senso comum como “politicamente correto” virou uma espécie de panaceia do mal: assim se classificam os textos considerados “emburrecedores” dos universitários brasileiros, o policiamento de piadas tão caras àqueles adolescentes e, mais importante, as críticas ao discurso machista e homofóbico em plena vigência em toda a sociedade. Para os meus colegas usuários, tratava-se de um ataque frontal: numa tacada só, estavam suprimindo suas leituras, seu senso de humor e até a possibilidade de ventilar suas frustrações amorosas. O Fórum, aos poucos, ganhava contornos de um espaço de “resistência”, e o que antes era só lamentação por uma vida amorosa frustrada deixou de parecer papo de adolescente para se transformar num celeiro de ódio contra as mulheres e outros grupos.

Esse último autor também cita o livro Kill All Normies, que parece muito promissor, sobre o fenômeno alt-right do 4chan nos EUA. Vou dar uma olhada nos próximos dias.

Se alguém aí é da área de ciência política/jornalismo, aí estão os assuntos das suas teses.

u/veggiesama · 12 pointsr/changemyview

I think T-shirt slogans and Twitter hashtags are just another type of "performative wokeness" that lets your colleagues demonstrate to one another how seriously they take racial injustice. It's really not attacking white people, because it's more likely than not to be a white person wearing the damn thing.

At this point, these activists are not interested in generating a dialogue with others outside their in-group. They're looking to solidify bonds with each other. It's a bit of ass-backwards tribalism, but liberals are sick and tired of having to be the adult in the room, so college-aged academics are happy to adopt a sarcastic, countercultural, 4chan-style "burn it all down" approach in order to build a foundation to stand on against out-group members. It's an emotional release rather than a productive move in favor of social liberalism.

I really enjoyed reading Kill All Normies, which breaks down the politics of transgression (attacking what we think is socially acceptable or polite) that both Tumblr reactionaries and alt-right superstars have engaged in. I see the "white tears" stuff as a natural extension of that, an attempt to reclaim a transgressive voice on the left that falls on a lot of deaf ears because of its inherent contradiction.

In other words, those slogans are not inflammatory or counterproductive to social liberalism, because they never were intended to advance social liberalism. Instead, they have been successful in uniting certain voices in this blip of time during the Trump era (for better or for worse), though I'm not sure how much longer that kind of rhetoric can sustain itself beyond that.

u/Murrabbit · 12 pointsr/SubredditDrama

>Uhh... what?

Some reading for you. Obviously gamergate wasn't the genesis of the alt-right, but it was certainly a major driver in it's rise to prominence and a very popular pathway for nerdy young men to join the radical right-wing.

u/Better_MixMaster · 7 pointsr/The_Donald is their Amazon page. Be a shame if people started leaving bad reviews.

u/EHStormcrow · 6 pointsr/france

> Mais je pense aussi que tu sous-estimes l'influence du "SJW" dans les médias, et surtout dans les universités américaines. C'est pas tout à fait une caricature, ça existe vraiment, et c'est assez répandu sur les campus. Ces personnes ont aussi des héroïnes et des médias qui sont les leurs (Lena Dunham est sans doute le plus grand exemple). Elles existent réellement, elles ne sont pas cantonnées à l'internet.

Pour ceux que le sujet intéresse, je vous suggère la lecture de Kill all normies.

Y a des choses intéressantes sur l'alt-gauche, leur pouvoir notamment à travers les "call out" sur Twitter/Tumblr et leur influence. Un de leurs éléments identifiants c'est la transgression (élément qu'elle partage avec l'alt-droite): enfoncer des portes ouvertes, des lieux communs culturels et sociaux, choquer et surtout être vus en train de le faire.

u/schlurpsy · 5 pointsr/politics

Kill All Normies by Angela Nagel would be a good (up to date) starting point. She's spent the last couple years embedded in their communities investigating them

Bonus dirtbag left interview with her where they talk about how all their motivations are basically sadism

u/wiking85 · 3 pointsr/FeMRADebates're Irish and you studied TRP...are you Angela Nagel?

u/DinoSalesman · 3 pointsr/AskSocialScience

This is probably the paper on aggregate personalities. I'd also recommend the book Kill all Normies, which is about 4Chan's personality.

Edit: Link fixed

u/infohack · 2 pointsr/ChapoTrapHouse

This video is brand new, and much of the theory behind it has only been fleshed out since the election. Nagle's book, Kill All Normies came out in June.

u/WalkingDad · 2 pointsr/de

Gib dir 'Kill All Normies' von Angela Nagle.
Ein exzellentes Buch, das nachzeichnet wie sich linke und rechte Empörungskultur gegenseitig hochgeschaukelt haben.

u/WinterTyme · 2 pointsr/AskTrumpSupporters

"The Political Class" is from 2018, but in general I don't think this year has been particularly good for books.

I'm also a fan of "Dark Deleuze" from 2016.

If I had to pick one recent one, I'd pick "Kill All Normies" from 2017.

u/Heywood12 · 2 pointsr/RedditCritiques

The Baffler was there on these people a while ago, Angela Nagel took the work from that and expanded it into a book....mostly because Incels become Proud Boys and the polo shirt goons of the Alt-Right - there is nowhere else to go if you both "love" and yet fear/hate women: these people do not exist on the far-Left.

u/Hythy · 2 pointsr/PoliticalHumor

I agree (to an extent).

I think that the rhetoric used by progressives has gone a long way towards alienating people whose experience of drawing the short lot in life doesn't fit into an increasingly atomising intersectional intellectual discussion of "identity".

I think a lot of poor whites who feel (and have in reality been) left behind find the current identity politics that are so popular on collage campuses as an insult.

We on the left need to address this. The left was supposed to be about solidarity, but in recent years identity politics as a central theme has followed a perversely free market consumerist logic. It's like a tivo for the political landscape.

Conversely the right has co-opted the same assumptions of historically left wing thinkers in their critique of modern discourse.

I'm not advocating an "all lives matter" bs cop out, but that as long as we are focused on academic arguments about identity that leave the working classes alienated, then the progress we make will always be hindered by the resentment it fosters.

Not sure how to save it, but I hope we can.

Full disclosure: I am a white heterosexual cisco male, so I understand that my perspective on the importance and impact of identity politics is grounded in a privileged perspective, but I don't think that shutting people out is the solution.

Edit: added the bit about agreeing, in case my wall of text put anyone off reading the wall of text.

Edit 2: My thinking on this issue has been shaped largely by this book.

There are certainly aspects of her thesis I fundamentally disagree with (a modernist perspective on progress is something I find kinda problematic -but I am wearing a t-shirt with Foucault on it as I write, so I might be a little biased. Also her turn against "counter culture", although I think that in fairness the author means that transgression for the sake of transgression is a hollow concept that has been romanticised by the left for too long -and with that I would begrudgingly agree. Although I do think it makes for a powerful tool to question our own assumptions).

u/TibetanBowlHealing · 1 pointr/GunsAreCool

I read this book Kill All Normies which examines how toxic online culture was morphed into alt-right extremism. It was almost natural how one flowed into the next.

u/beelzebubs_avocado · 1 pointr/samharris

Sounds like a synonym for denouncing or speaking out against?

This book sounds like it would be worth a read. Heard of it?

One could imagine a steelman version of white nationalism that involves all of the adherents moving to Montana and Idaho, sort of a more dramatic white flight.

What's your plan?

u/Satanistfronthug · 1 pointr/unitedkingdom
u/steamwhistler · 1 pointr/GirlGamers

I love it when people who've been around do these internet history write-ups. Thanks for taking the time.

I'm an oldie too (30) but I guess I wasn't that observant. I wasn't too involved in forum culture until I started playing WoW and then started posting on its forums a lot, especially the notorious Off-Topic forum, which I guess was adjacent to 4chan in time and culture. People made a lot of references to it on there, and I went and checked out the site but I never understood the formatting -- still don't to this day, honestly. I was aware of the Something Awful brand but it wasn't until years after its' forums' heyday that I started to understand what a huge and influential entity they were on the early social web.

This is random, but you sound like the kind of person who'd be into this book I read recently: Kill All Normies: Online Culture Wars From 4Chan And Tumblr To Trump And The Alt-Right.

It's a thin volume compiling a series of essays talking about how the culture wars we see in the mainstream today grew out of the dark corners of the internet. I should mention that the author is controversial on the Left because a lot of people have interpreted her work as essentially blaming the rise of nazis on the well-known excesses of Tumblr, but I think her take, and the right takeaway, is that reaction to "SJWs" is one small ingredient in this huge thing that was building for years.

Anyway, just thought I'd mention.

u/lilperf · 1 pointr/ukpolitics

Also for anyone that isn't a maga chud this book is well worth a pre-order: , Angela Nagle has done some great articles so far explaining this subculture.

u/williambotter · 1 pointr/brasilnoticias

A alt-right pegou muitos de nós de surpresa. Estávamos acostumados a um discurso direitista muito diferente: rígido, necrosado, defensor da ordem e das convenções. Mas, quase de repente, a extrema direita norte-americana começou a se comunicar com memes e a zombar de seus adversários, aos quais identificava com o establishment a ser subvertido.

Como explica a jornalista irlandesa Angela Nagle em seu livro Kill All Normies, a direita passou a usar a arma principal da contracultura dos anos sessenta, a transgressão, aproveitando os meios do século XXI. Seu objetivo era (e é) maquiar o racismo e o machismo até fazê-los parecer originais e modernos. É um esforço que funcionou o suficiente para ajudar Donald Trump a se eleger presidente dos Estados Unidos, em novembro de 2016.

E, no princípio, tudo parecia só uma brincadeira de mau gosto.

Pela zoeira

Em seu livro, inédito no Brasil, Nagle explica como a alt-right usou a linguagem dos memes para sair de cantos mais ou menos obscuros da Internet e acabar dominando grande parte do debate político.

Suas ideias não são novas, mas sim a linguagem, herdada de foros como Reddit e 4Chan. Esses memes e ataques se apresentam envolvidos em várias camadas de ironia. Seja ao desumanizar as mulheres ou espezinhar as minorias, tudo se faz através do riso. E quando alguém se mostra ressentido, a zoeira é redobrada, e se joga na cara da vítima que ela não é capaz de aguentar uma brincadeira. Quem não entender é um normie (um normalzinho, alguém que não se liga no que acontece na Internet). Já não se trata de épater o burguês, e sim de épater o progressista.

O tom, descrito também por Whitney Philips e Ryan M. Milner em seu livro The Ambivalent Internet (“a internet ambivalente”), torna difícil saber quando alguém fala a sério, quando está brincando, ou, como ocorre frequentemente, quando se trata das duas coisas ao mesmo tempo. Um exemplo é o sapo Pepe: a direita supremacista se apropriou desse personagem em 2015 e o transformou em um símbolo não muito velado de suas ideias, mas muitos (incluindo o site de ultradireita Breitbart) defenderam mais de uma vez que era só meme inocente. É brincadeira, por que vocês se magoam?

A referência ao Breitbart não é casual: as ideias dessa extrema direita cresceram à margem dos meios convencionais, criando (ou impulsionando) uma cultura própria na Internet e veículos alternativos. Também contribuiu para isso um punhado de figuras midiáticas, sejam da alt-right mais dura, como Richard Spencer, defensor de um Estado etnicamente branco, como da chamada alt-light, que atenuou essas ideias para que chegassem a um público mais amplo. Aqui cabe mencionar figuras como Mike Cernovich e Milo Yiannopoulos, que escolheram o feminismo como principal inimigo.

E todos, claro, contando com o apoio do exército memético procedente dos fóruns supramencionados, que aparecem correndo a qualquer chamado para realizar suas tarefas de perseguição. Um exemplo são os ataques a Leslie Jones, atriz de Os Caça-Fantasmas que foi alvo de uma campanha de insultos instigada por Yiannopoulos e que chegou à publicação de suas fotos pessoais.

A resposta da esquerda no Twitter

O subtítulo do livro (“guerras culturais on-line, do 4Chan e Tumblr a Trump e à alt-right”) faz referência às guerras culturais na Internet que levaram à ascensão do atual presidente norte-americano. Pois Nagle não fala só de como a direita centrou o debate na base de memes e manchetes escandalosas, mas também de como a esquerda, na sua opinião, não soube dar resposta a esse movimento.

Segundo Nagle, a guerra memética da direita foi em grande parte uma reação ao discurso esquerdista em espaços como Tumblr e Twitter. As principais preocupações desta nova cultura não estavam na desigualdade econômica, e sim em questões como a fluidez de gênero, a identidade cultural e a interseccionalidade, “o termo acadêmico padrão para reconhecer as múltiplas variedades das marginalizações e opressões cruzadas”.

A autora aponta como, apesar de sua aparente vulnerabilidade, essa esquerda tuiteira frequentemente se comporta com uma agressividade comparável à da direita, tudo “atrás da segurança do teclado”. Cultivou-se, escreve, “uma cultura da fragilidade e o vitimismo misturada com uma cultura agressiva de ataques e humilhações em grupo, além de tentativas de destruir reputações e vidas alheias”, num procedimento batizado de cry-bulling, ou seja, perseguição junto com choro. Definitivamente, para parte dessa esquerda o mais importante era apontar os erros alheios e deixar claro que não compartilhava deles.

Enquanto a esquerda caminhava na ponta dos pés, com medo a ficar marcada para sempre por seus próprios companheiros, a atitude da direita foi justamente a contrária: procurou o confronto e o provocou de forma aberta, como quando Yiannopoulos perguntou a seus seguidores se preferiam ter câncer ou serem feministas.

O fim da transgressão?

Como escreve Nagle, essa versão troll da direita com frequência entende “o valor da transgressão, da originalidade e da contracultura melhor que seus homólogos da esquerda”, a tal ponto que, na sua opinião, a vitória de Trump não significa tanto o retorno do conservadorismo como a confirmação da hegemonia do inconformismo, mesmo que só nas aparências.

Afinal de contas, esta direita é liderada por um presidente lascivo, apoiado por uma figura libertina como Yiannopoulos, tudo com a ajuda de um exército on-line de racistas, mal educados e apreciadores da pornografia. Pouco disso tem a ver com a direita conservadora tradicional.

Isso sim, toda essa transgressão ambivalente também tem seus riscos. Quando vieram à tona gravações de Yiannopoulos defendendo a pedofilia e o antissemitismo, ele não pôde se defender, como fazia habitualmente, com o escudo da brincadeira e da ironia. Sua carreira acabou.

Mas, como aponta Nagle, o grave é que Yiannopoulos tenha caído por um escândalo, “e não depois de uma batalha de ideias”. Do mesmo modo, os memes à custa do soco em Richard Spencer foram muito engraçados, mas não evitaram que em seu primeiro ato público depois da vitória de Trump 200 pessoas o aplaudissem, algumas delas fazendo a saudação nazista, enquanto ele gritava: “Hail Trump, hail our people, hail victory” (“salve Trump, salve o nosso povo, salve a vitória”).

A brincadeira não tem mais graça, conclui Nagle, que propõe aproveitar a vitória dessa temível direita nas eleições norte-americanas para rechaçar a dialética da provocação: em lugar de tentar trolar o troll, comenta, seria preciso pensar em construir algo novo. Algo que não dependa nem de insultos nem de linchamentos.

u/Chiafriend12 · 0 pointsr/Vaporwave

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