(Part 3) Top products from r/Divorce

Hope you don't mind some unsolicited advice.

I struggled with some of the same things in my new relationship that you are, I hope you don't mind me sharing some things that helped when I started to worry about whether this relationship would be any different. I really did stress about it for years.... the feeling of "Well, last time i thought it was great, too" or "I've proven I can't pick a partner well at all" was overwhelming at times, almost leading me to decide that I'd be better off just not pursuing a relationship with anyone, ever.

Here's some things that have helped me get past that fear.

First, make some lists. I'm not really a list person, but these lists helped in a big way.

1. Make a list of everything about your previous partner that led to the failure. Mine had things like "never put my needs ahead of her own" and "Got mad when I spent time with friends instead of her" and "Overly-emotional responses to little things." Then, think, long and hard, about your new partner, and take a fat red pen and cross everything on the list that just doesn't apply to your fiance off the list. When you have a page full of red, you'll feel a little better.
   
   
2. Make a list of all the warning signs you ignored because you're an idiot. You know they were there, I still kick myself for ignoring them, there were so many red flags that I just walked past, I saw them, rationalized them... in my case "wasn't willing to wait for me to be ready to get married, delivered ultimatums about "now or just go" and "completely freaked out at me for still e-mailing with an ex" and the like were on the list. Then cross off everything that doesn't apply. Another page full of red made me feel better.
   
   
3. Make a list of everything YOU'VE learned that makes you a better partner than you were. Top of my list were "you can't count on someone staying with you because you're married, you have to work to make sure that every single morning the person that wakes up next to you wants to be with you." Also on my list, things like "Some things are just not worth fighting about" and "it's really important that both people in the relationship keep their own hobbies, their own friends, and their own interests." Don't cross these off, just use the list to remind yourself that even though there's damage and scarring from the old relationship, that you also learned a lot, grew a lot, and that you'll be a better partner this time around.
   
   Second, do some real, tangible things to make sure the relationship feels different. I'm sure some of the things we're doing will help the relationship, but more than that, the fact that we're both doing so much to make sure this is going to work just provides me a level of comfort that we're both committed to making this work and that we're thinking about the right things. They also make me feel, a lot more, like if there were a dealbreaker, that we'd have found it by now.
   
   
4. Saving your Second Marriage Before it Starts is a book and a his/hers workbook that has been kinda cool. It doesn't all seem useful, and much of it seems common sense, but again, much of the value has been that we cared enough to do it, and that through the course of it we didn't find anything that was really scary or too much to work through.
   
   
5. Joint counseling. My fiance and I attend church together (which, on its own is new, and helps) but we're getting premarital counseling from the church. I'm not a 'religion is the fixer for every problem in the world' guy, but I do think a shared faith is important (not that I've had it before in relationships) and I think a situation where we're encouraged to talk about that faith and grow it together can help. However, because the church has a tendency to try to be 'more' than it is, we are:
   
   
6. Getting pre-marital counseling from a real psychologist/counselor. They're very happy with us, apparently most couples wait until the problems are deep and the baggage is piled up and the stress is absurdly high. We haven't, honestly, found a single thing that really needs to be dealt with, that we haven't already talked about and worked through, but the comfort that comes from knowing that we talked, together, with a professional, for 6 or 8 weeks is cool.
   
   and, finally, simply have the hard talks. Make sure you've brought up all your damage. When we finally decided to make this relationship real, to change the nature from 'right now' to 'forever' we had to open some doors to conversation that I didn't really want open. I had to basically hand her the tools to break me... the things my ex did that eviscerated my emotionally, the things she said that still sit in the back of my brain and burn... she needs to know these tripwires are still there, that there are things she should be able to do or say that won't be interpreted as "Wow, my new wife did this once" but rather as "Wow, my partners ALWAYS do this to me." She did the same. Things I wouldn't have thought would be a big deal (and, really, for most people wouldn't be) will destroy her, and I know why, and I know how to avoid them.
   
   And, finally, and I don't know if I recommend this, because I hate it every damn day, but we stopped having sex. We'd had great (better than great) sex for 3 and a half years, and I stopped it about 2 months ago until we're married sometime this fall or winter. It wasn't a religious thing, though I am Christian, so it does make me feel better in some ways, but it was because I realized how we were using sex to avoid some things and I wanted us to have some more tools in our toolbox. Sex was being used as "I'm sorry" and it was covering "I don't feel very emotionally close to you" and even, occasionally, for 'I don't want to talk about this stressful thing, so I'm going to start sex instead." We've actually been forced to come up with more ways to connect, more ways to apologize, more ways to comfort each other me when things are going rough, and that's helped too. Plus, as a side bonus, since it was my idea, her friends think I'm the most amazing man in the world, and the 'man club' showed up, took away my man card, and left me with a tutu and a chihuahua puppy in a sweater. Plus, I think the cable company swapped out NFL this fall with Ice skating finals. sigh Oh well. (Plus, down the road, when my daughter asks, I can honestly say "Well, your step-Mom and I had sex some, then realized it would be better if we waited until we were married.")
   
   Wow. A book full of advice you didn't ask for.

I had severe panic attacks when I had that conversation with my STBX wife in 2013. My first stop was a psychiatrist who got me on some medications that really helped. There's no good reason to suffer more than you have to.

Here are a few other recommendations:

Get an apartment that you like... It will make you feel better. It doesn't have to be a long-term decision. But have a place you feel good about.

Go to Ikea and get new stuff. Furnish your place. Use TaskRabbit liberally to do the shitty assembly stuff for you.

Get a therapist... you need someone to talk to. It may seem expensive, but remember, this is a 12-month or less situation.

Before you start dating, I recommend reading Tucker Max's new book, Mate, (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0316375365/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=0316375365&linkCode=as2&tag=tucmax-20&linkId=B42LME2RMHW7DM6E) or listen to his podcast, Mating Grounds. It helped me a ton.

When you feel like you're ready (i.e. when you genuinely reach a place where you hope the best for your ex), get on Bumble, Hinge, Tinder, Happn, OkCupid, etc. and start meeting women for drinks. You'll be pleasantly surprised. Good luck.

It may be hokey but I have felt much better since I started reading this book. I like that it's just a day by day read, and it has helped me find value in myself independent of my STBXW. Good luck to you, I know this sucks. Congrats on POST, celebrate that and look forward to your new career. https://www.amazon.com/Heal-Broken-Heart-Days-Day/dp/0767909089

Absolutely. My wife told me she wanted a divorce 2 months ago, and it was awful the first couple of weeks. I kept running to help control my emotions, and saw a marriage counselor several times for advice on what to do to save my marriage. It's been really hard, but it's getting better. Where I was 2 months ago vs today... I'm a better me. It's so easy to fall into self-destructive behaviors. Being aware is one thing, but gathering that inner strength to build the willingness to change and be strong... That's a whole different thing altogether.

I read a couple good books over the last two months:

The Divorce Remedy

You Will Get Through This

I can recommend a few books that although really have nothing to do with divorce, will set you on a proper path.

1. 12 Rules for Life: An Antidote to Chaos
   
2. The PMA Effect
   
   Here's a great clip from a Jocko Willink podcast that TRULY got me through it.
   
   Be thankful you don't have kids. You're 33 Years Young. Dude, you got this!
   
   Go forth and be your best self.

You might want to try meditation/mindfulness. Read the book Mindsight, it will teach you how and why this will help.

Think of your mind as the hub of a wheel. Imagine the spokes moving out in all directions, connecting to our sensations (our five senses & the external world), our internal body (heart, lungs, etc), mental activities (feelings, thoughts, memories), and interconnectedness (with other people and our surroundings). The rim.

At the center (the hub), we are at peace. Everyone has a hub. But often times we get stuck on the outer parts of the wheel (in your case, feelings, thoughts, memories & maybe interconnectedness) and we can't find peace. Meditation can teach you to recognize when you are on focusing on the rim instead of being at the hub. Being your thoughts instead of seeing them for what they are.

I'd also recommend "The Way to Love: The Last Meditations of Anthony de Mello". It's a very short book with solid advice. You've attached your happiness to your STBX. Any time we attach to something for our happiness, we can't be happy because we become anxious of losing it. In your case, you have lost it. I'm in the same boat, so no judgement. We have to learn that we don't need them (or anyone or anything else) to be happy. It takes time, and mindfulness can help with this as well.

Maybe these can help you.

Gonna start with my regular checklist for family members, and then move into some other stuff, understanding that you've already checked some of these off:

Fundamental issues first:

1. Have a look at the CoDA website to try to grasp some of the interpersonal dynamics in play.
   
   
2. Take a look at these article on the KDT to see where you and they fit on the triangle (because everyone in this culture is on that thing).
   
   
3. Have a look at the five stages of therapeutic recovery to see where they are... and get a sense of whether or not they can move from the stages they are in to the next one.
   
   
4. Are they abusing drugs or alcohol? If so, will they go to rehab or to AA, MA or NA? Because if they are substance abusers and will not go to rehab or a 12 Step program, they are firmly at stage one of the five stages of therapeutic recovery, and the only thing you can do is walk away and protect yourself.
   
   Advanced issues second:
   
   
5. If they seem caught in the consensus trance, are they capable of understanding that? And are they motivated to dig out?
   
   
6. What financial resources (e.g. health insurance or savings) do they have? Are they sufficient to get them into a kick-start for their problems that may be as (relatively) inexpensive as a few visits with a psychiatrist (med prescriber) and/or a clinical psychologist (assessor and treatment suggestor) and/or a psychotherapist (who has experience with the therapies appropriate for her specific condition).
   
   
7. Will they go to (and stick with) ACA, EA and CoDA to get an at least somewhat educated support system around her?
   
   
8. Will they dig into the information on the Internet, and in thousands of excellent books one can easily find online (there's junk out there, as well; one will need to learn to discern the chicken pooh from the chicken salad), to enlighten her as to her condition and what to do about it? (See all these links: the CBTs including REBT, collegiate critical thinking, CPT, and schema therapy, as well as EMDR, DBT, MBCT, ACT, MBBT, MBSR, [SEPt]( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somatic_Experiencing, HBCT, NARM, SP4T and 10 StEPs of Emotion Processing.)
   
   
9. Will they use what they learn to dig into and do workbooks like these, and these and these and these?
   
   If -- after all that -- you're where I think you are, the best thing you can do is get everyone else on board with The Facts by reading books like these:
   
   Nina Brown's Children of the Self-Absorbed: A Grown-Up's Guide to Getting Over Narcissistic Parents
   
   Eleanor Payson's The Wizard of Oz and other Narcissists: Coping with the One-Way Relationship in Work, Love, and Family
   
   Lindsay Gibson's Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents: How to Heal from Distant, Rejecting, or Self-Involved Parents
   
   Elan Golomb's Trapped in the Mirror: Adult Children of Narcissists in the Struggle for Self
   
   Susan Forward's Toxic Parents: Overcoming Their Hurtful Legacy and Reclaiming Your Life (a bit long in tooth now, but still useful) and Emotional Blackmail: When the People in Your Life Use Fear, Obligation, and Guilt to Manipulate You
   
   Kimberlee Roth & Frieda Friedman's Surviving a Borderline Parent: How to Heal Your Childhood Wounds & Build Trust, Boundaries, and Self-Esteem
   
   Naomi Feil: The Validation Breakthrough: Simple Techniques for Communication with People with Alzheimer's (because, Alzheimer's or not, he has to be treated as though he is demented).
   
   Because there's almost nothing worse than a dry -- but actually untreated -- alcoholic defending himself with the very common distortions of the 12 Steps & 12 Traditions one sees in the rooms of AA among the self-righteously narcissistic. He has his defense mechanisms for a reason, and if he is not experiencing emotional pain himself, that reason will remain outside his consciousness.
   
   You can try the intervention route with someone skilled at motivational interviewing, but based on what you wrote -- and almost 30 years' experience with this sort of thing -- the prospects do not look good for anyone but those of you who do what I suggested.
   
   Call the police, and run all this down, especially if you have personally witnessed him being abusive and or violent with your mother, and be prepared to testify in court. Get an attorney to do a TRO and PRO. Tell the police as soon as the TRO is in place. Get your mother safely moved.

"...but looking back, saving it would mean just working back to me being basically a servant. I admit, I'm the one that changed. And I know she won't change."

Third option, Boundaries. People mentioned this book when I was figuring out the issues in my marriage, and I thought because I'd seen people talk about boundaries and read about them online that I got it and didn't actually need to read the book.

Now that I'm in the middle of divorce and I've actually taken the time to start reading this series of books on boundaries (the original book, boundaries in marriage, boundaries for kids, boundaries for dating), I realize there was a lot more I could have been doing to change the relationship just by my own actions.

That said, I've made peace with this is where I'm at right now and I"m mostly just continuing to read about boundaries for any future relationships I might have. It is also questionable back then whether I was capable of implementing the book's directives because of my (at the time) overwhelming anxiety/depression.

Sorry to hear, but don't lose hope. I'm 49, my stbxw has left our marriage for the second time, I'm still healing, but I have a lot of hope for my future. You should as well.

She cheated one you, and that is a big reason to let her go. That violates a trust that you may never have been able to restore.

Right now you're wallowing in your pain, and I get that. You need to do the following: exercise, take up a new hobby, read self-help books, spend time creating new memories, take time to heal, learn your lessons from your failed marriage and don't repeat them, and most importantly, be patient with yourself.

I recommend you read these books:

1. http://www.amazon.com/No-More-Mr-Nice-Guy/dp/0762415339/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1452259555&sr=1-1&keywords=no+more+mr+nice+guy
   
   
2. http://www.amazon.com/Love-Languages-Secret-that-Lasts/dp/080241270X/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1452259588&sr=1-1&keywords=5+love+languages
   
   
3. http://www.amazon.com/Habits-Highly-Effective-People-Powerful/dp/1451639619/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1452259607&sr=1-1&keywords=7+habits
   
   The Robert Glover book is like a kick in the pants, or at least it was for me. Regarding my own situation, I'm deeply saddened by my ex wanting to leave again. I was very much in love with her, but she was not in love with me. She wanted to explore "feelings" she had for another woman, and I wasn't the guy she wanted to spend the rest of her life with. That really hurt, and it sill does, but well... let's just say that while I own my mistakes, my ex's romanticizing of life and need to sustained highs to make her feel happy was impossible to meet. I wish her well, but I have my own life to lead now.
   
   You do too. It will take time, but you'll get to the other side of hell. Follow the advice I and others give you, and see what works for you. Remember rough moments are just that... moments to get through. Life will get better and you'll see light in the darkness again. Stay the course.
   
   

Read the 1 star reviews. Wallerstein's study is overblown and has been questioned by many. It was not scientific, but is more used as a cornerstone of telling people not to divorce. I know a lot of people who grew up in single parent households and they turned out just fine. Remember that the people that tout her work are staunchly anti-divorce. That should raise an eyebrow. When somebody says they have a study proving cigarettes are good for you, you might want to question their motives.

http://www.amazon.com/The-Unexpected-Legacy-Divorce-Landmark/product-reviews/0786886161/ref=cm_cr_dp_qt_hist_one?ie=UTF8&filterByStar=one_star&showViewpoints=0

I've not had to deal with this (yet), but what you've described with friends doesn't seem uncommon from what I've read in:

http://www.amazon.com/Divorce-Consequences-Current-Perspectives-Psychology/dp/0300125933

Boundaries: When to Say Yes, How to Say No to Take Control of Your Life

The Daily Stoic: 366 Meditations on Wisdom, Perseverance, and the Art of Living

This book is an excellent as a resource as you think about what to do.

same thoughts here. I went through that journey. Now I have kids, and am single. Read the book, "Why Men Are The Way They Are" by Warren Farrell, it just might save your life!

http://www.amazon.com/Why-Men-Are-Way-They/dp/042511094X

Also, you might try reading amazon.com: Helping Your Kids Cope with Divorce the Sandcastles Way

The Power of Now and It's Easier Than You Think are 2 good starting points.

When you're struggling with the voice of dread (I had that a LOT) the first thing you have to realize is that you are creating it yourself--your brain is making that voice. The same way you never would confuse an eye twitch with yourself, you need to learn not to confuse a "brain twitch" with yourself. You are not that thought.

I also would recommend a meditation app like 10% happier.

Meditation is designed to focus on the now, on the idea that right at this minute you are okay, and that all your fears about the future are imaginary, in that you simply are creating them with your own thoughts. It's all about focusing on your breathing, and every single time your thoughts stray (as they do for everyone) you simply learn to bring your thoughts back to your breathing. It is far harder than it seems. And in trying to do it you learn to control your thoughts and you distract yourself from fear.

I am telling you: surviving divorce requires every ounce of concentration. It is like fighting a bear, and every single day you survive is a victory.

Also, I personally have decided that no matter what I am trying to be kind and good through this whole process, even if it means I do not get whatever money I might be entitled to. As long as I have access to my children, I can survive anything. I need them. And I need to be able to live with myself at the end.

It has been so difficult, but I have learned more about myself and more about my spouse than I ever could have imagined.

For the first 2 months I cried constantly. I work in a building with maybe 100+ other people, and every single one of them knew what I was going through.

You learn in a hurry just how many friends you have when you suffer.

I read this one, which was recommended by my therapist: https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/0345442318/

I plan on reading more books about it. It's really a somewhat cleansing experience, in my opinion.

1. Get this book https://www.amazon.com/Splitting-Protecting-Borderline-Narcissistic-Personality/dp/1608820254 read it, and follow the instructions
   
   
2. Get a lawyer who understands the behaviour patterns. My first one didn't and kept expecting XW to be reasonable. This failed. My new lawyer took one look at her communications, said "you will never, ever reason with this person" and has helped me get it to court asap. Mediation etc is fine for two normal people who are having difficulties communicating because they are dealing with the emotional fallout of a marriage ending. If one of those people has a PD, it's generally a total waste of time (unless you have a specialist mediator, I suppose).
   
   
3. Get a counsellor who has experience helping people recover from narcissistic abuse. The sooner you start seeing her the better.
   
   
4. Expect hell. Your STBX will lie, cheat, blame to a far greater extent once they know the game is up. But as Churchill said - if you're going through hell, keep going.
   
   
5. Take notes and evidence constantly. Cross reference things. N's are quite convincing liars on the surface, but they have trouble maintaining consistency . That's where you trip them up in conjunction with your lawyer
   
   
6. NEVER, EVER suggest to them or the court that they have a PD. That will go very badly for you. You're not qualified to make that diagnosis, and it may turn the court against you. Instead just focus on patterns of behaviour.
   
   
7. I found this book very useful - it's a book on philosophy which is great for dealing with situations where you have very little power. https://www.amazon.com/Guide-Good-Life-Ancient-Stoic/dp/0195374614
   
   
8. Get your family and friends and support network in place before you make your move. Warn them that your STBX may play the victim and try and manipulate them. My XW took to messaging and calling my business partner's wife constantly in an effort to turn him against me. It caused me some problems initially, but we have it sorted now.

Hetherington's book is probably the best resource. She downplays the negative effects (Look! Only a quarter of kids seem to suffer lasting long-term harm! That's still a minority, just like kids from intact families (~10%) -- ignore the fact that that's two and a half times as many kids...). But, she does report the data honestly. https://www.amazon.com/Better-Worse-Divorce-Reconsidered/dp/0393324133/